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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe 3463 - Wicked Cool News
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:05 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
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Hugh -- attempting to do something like le Chatelier braking on a 130 mph locomotive is an open invitation to disaster. Even before you get into the independent-brake problem of all the energy going into only eight wheels -- wheels with thin tires, which should make you think about 110 mph GG1s -- wheels that are comparatively expensive to machine when flatted...

The real issue with use of 'diesel trucks' under the tender is that they are not rated anywhere near that speed, either in suspension and guiding or in unsprung-mass considerations. A much better choice (in my opinion) is to use something like war-weary AEM-7 trucks (one reason I was so disgusted when Amtrak scrapped a couple of AEM-7s a few months ago and didn't save them) which ARE rated that fast, and implement both resistive and active dynamic braking on them (to allow braking effort down to very low track speed without requiring heavy friction/wear and heat dissipation on the treads.

As a fringe benefit, of course, the TMs can be used to start the locomotive under slick track conditions, or get the locomotive up to track speed, if equipped with trailing or auxiliary power (or an asynchronous-compound system).

It certainly is possible to modify an existing C truck to run at high speed, but you'd need to begin by replacing the nose suspension. I smell dollars burning that would be much better spent in the combustion design or the steam circuit...

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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe 3463 - Wicked Cool News
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:34 pm 

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All I can say at this point is that I'm very struck by the difference in quality of information between the posts made by people who know about modern steam engineering, and those who don't even know what they don't know, only that they don't understand it, so it must therefore be suspect if not wrong.

Thanks, Hugh and Robert.

dave

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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe 3463 - Wicked Cool News
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:41 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:54 pm
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This may be a dumb question but what exactly is going on with the 4-6-4?


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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe 3463 - Wicked Cool News
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:36 pm 
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Dave wrote:
All I can say at this point is that I'm very struck by the difference in quality of information between the posts made by people who know about modern steam engineering, and those who don't even know what they don't know, only that they don't understand it, so it must therefore be suspect if not wrong.



I don't think that's a fair assumption.

Just because someone is posting "in between" the industry experts does not mean they don't have a fair opinion of whats going on.

I question the group behind this because as with anything else, it is not 1980 anymore.

The thought process to restore any piece of railroad equipment must have a large picture in mind.

I'd like to eat crow on this venture as well, Dave, but I just don't understand how groups want to restore any large engine without a place to operate it.

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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe 3463 - Wicked Cool News
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:55 am 

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I can't disagree Jeff, but the place it will be operated is at the Pueblo test track as is openly mentioned in their plans. The primary goal is to develop a fuel, not start a rail excursion progam....but I don't doubt that if they succeed, a place will be found for it to stretch it's legs while burning torrefied fuel that we can all enjoy - probably somewhere in the vicinity of the northern midwest where there's a lot of pulpwood no longer in much demand as the size of newspapers shrink along with their industry.

I've long been a proponent of the idea that you don't restore a locomotive if you don't have a reason to do so first - a legitimate business reason, not because it is going to provide you with personal gratification followed by watching it rust away for 1475 days cold until it becomes useless again. The building of the program is the challenge - because the rest is just mechanical work, and with a good program generating support in place, the resources for the mechanical stuff will be available.

I think I was more commenting on the lack of a grasp of the technicalities and focus on less meaningful mechanical details rather than big picture - because they have laid their big picture out pretty vividly in their publications. I agree they have tilted it a bit too much towards the foamy aspect rather than the fuel development aspect to appeal to this audience, which is backfiring as we eat each other rather than jump in as supporters, but it's there........if you are willing to recognise it.

dave

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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe 3463 - Wicked Cool News
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:21 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
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When I read their website, it sounds to me like their primary objective is to revolutionize railroad motive power with carbon neutral steam. And it sounds like a rather distant secondary objective is to promote the use of torrefied fuel for power generation in a variety of scales for the world market.

However, what has been said here is that the primary objective is the power generation application, and the intense project of rebuilding #3463 is just intended to create a “rolling billboard” for torrefied fuel.

That seems like a really roundabout way to achieve the intended goal. Why not just develop the fuel and promote it by applying it to its intended purpose of generating power? Why not have that be the “billboard” to promote their concept?


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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe 3463 - Wicked Cool News
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:11 am 

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OK, so roughly 4 years later. Where does this project stand? What is the current status of the locomotive?


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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe 3463 - Wicked Cool News
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:00 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
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Bob,

Take a look at the other thread on this first page of the forum regarding #3463. The court action has been resolved, but I do not understand what is being said in this press release: http://csrail.org/newsroom/


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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe 3463 - Wicked Cool News
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:32 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
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I echo what someone said earlier in this thread, it would be a shame to butcher this locomotive for an unproven experiment. I'll bet the guy who described this plan as "wicked cool' has an old Mercedes-Benz diesel he converted to run on used vegetable oil he gets free from McDonalds and thinks it would be neat to try that on a steam locomotive.


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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe 3463 - Wicked Cool News
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:05 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:27 am
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Location: Winters, TX
Bear in mind that the other option is to let the locomotive rot to the point of becoming an eyesore at which time the city would take action to remedy the situation. Judging from photos taken at the time CSR became involved with the locomotive, it wasn't too far away from that point.


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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe 3463 - Wicked Cool News
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:50 pm 

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This is a Santa Fe Hudson type, right? Not too many of those left. Raise some money, buy it and donate it to someplace that will preserve it without trying to make a charcoal fired rotisserie out of it.

Dennis

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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe 3463 - Wicked Cool News
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:04 pm 

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Sounds simple enough yet why hasn't anyone done that before now? I don't suppose that IRM would be interested in another Hudson?


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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe 3463 - Wicked Cool News
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:28 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:23 am
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Location: Sheboygan County, Wisconsin
Dennis Storzek wrote:
This is a Santa Fe Hudson type, right? Not too many of those left. Raise some money, buy it and donate it to someplace that will preserve it without trying to make a charcoal fired rotisserie out of it.

Dennis


Not just a Hudson Dennis, but what was dubbed a Super Hudson.
I don't have specs handy, but they were an exceptional locomotive
when compared to others of that type.

The 3450 or 51 class of which one is extant, were more the norm for the type.


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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe 3463 - Wicked Cool News
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:40 am 

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Not just any 'Super Hudson' but a design intended to be, for six-coupled locomotives, what the 3768 class was for 4-8-4s. Designed at the 'tag end' of the era when eight-coupled locomotives were assumed to be unsuitable for very-high-speed service, and featuring 84" drivers and relatively short stroke to facilitate that high speed.

Problem was that the steam passages were designed in a way that did not permit full use of the speed "potential" of 84" drivers, and as a result the maximum speed in service of the 3460 class was somewhere in the 102-105mph speed range. By comparison the later 4-8-4s, including the wartime 2900s, could easily run more quickly, and had Wagner bypass valves to make operation at very high speed more stable.

The high-speed situation was possibly similar to that of the C&NW E4 Hudsons, also with 84" drivers, which during AAR testing could not even reach 100mph with the test train. I believe there was a report in Trains Magazine in the early 1980s which indicates an uncomfirmed speed of circa 110mph on a Fast Mail train, but this might have been downgrade with a tailwind; DPM's claim that these locomotives were 'capable of 120mph' was simply science fiction.

Members of the Yahoo steam_tech group have conducted an analysis of the 3460 design with Bill Hall's Perform program and some other tools. These indicate, among other things, that the 3460 design may be capable of developing horsepower at cyclic speed corresponding to 130mph with comparatively simple valve refinements. Whether, even with a Batz lead truck, the locomotive would be stable at that speed on the Fast Loop is an entirely different question.

Conversion to solid fuel is a red herring, and a somewhat stupid one considering that the Ripley Hudsons were explicitly designed to permit conversion to solid fuel if desired. The torrefied "wood" in question is a high-carbon product (>90% C) with ash content comparable with clean-coal fluxing, and (if it follows existing European torrefaction practice) is intended for cofiring with what may be otherwise-unsuitable grades of coal.

My personal opinion, other than 'scientific', is that the locomotive deserves better than to be a jungle gym for Topeka kids, and that the design shortcomings 'as built' ought to be remediated, even for a short time, to demonstrate what the rest of the design was capable of. That does not involve publicity-stunt operation at 130mph, of course, but I would be highly interested to see what can be achieved with a late modern Americal locomotive at high speed (>115mph in increments) and what other modifications become necessary as speeds rise past 120mph.

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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe 3463 - Wicked Cool News
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:23 am 
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Is the CSR organization maintaining an active public outreach program? If part of their mission is to educate the public about steam locomotives and their alternate fuels, they could reach an interested portion of the public at minimal expense and effort by putting together a good clinic on the mechanics and function of steam locomotives with a segment on their alternate fuels development programs and campaigning it through the National Model Railroad Association. The NMRA has a larger membership than the NRHS or R&LHS, the members are generally a little younger, and there is considerable interest in the technical details of locomotives and railroad equipment. In addition, the NMRA has numerous regional meetings, is always looking for clinics and speakers for those meetings, and maintains a list of active speakers and programs that they make available to their regions. So that is one ready and available distribution network for their message.

PC

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