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 Post subject: Re: Question about driving rigid stays...
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:06 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 710
Newriver400 wrote:
Yes, but NBIC also clearly states that when bolts are heated, critical temperature is not to be exceeded, which is apparent here.


I would not rely on judgement made solely from a photograph. There is no way of knowing the temperature from a photograph unless the photo shows a thermometer or some other device in the same frame.

What happened to the photo, anyway? It seems to be gone.

I see nothing to indicate that a temperature measuring system of some kind was not in use. We have no way of knowing whether or not the person doing the work was using, say, an infrared heat checking device, and laid it down when the proper temp was reached so he could hold the air gun with both hands.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about driving rigid stays...
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:34 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:43 am
Posts: 388
Location: Dalton, Georgia
J. David,

I applaud your willingness to share your extensive knowledge and render an opinion. Thank you.

I was under the impression, that based on CFR 49 Part 230.29 (b) (1), FRA did have standards. Do I mis-interpret the regulation?

It reads, (as I'm sure you know):

(b) Repair standards. (1) All defects disclosed by inspection shall be repaired in accordance with accepted industry standards—which may include established railroad practices, or NBIC or API established standards—before the steam locomotive is returned to service. The steam locomotive owner and/or operator shall not return the steam locomotive boiler or appurtenances to service unless they are in good condition and safe and suitable for service.

If this is not established railroad practice, NBIC, or API established practice, then wouldn't it be non-compliant?

AND, something is fishy. All photos attached by me to posts hereto in reference to the discussion have been removed, with no explanation. Though not taken by me, they were publicly posted on social media and were posted here well within the fair use exception. Further, they have disappeared from the social media site where they were originally posted. Why? If the practice is acceptable, then why would anyone want to hide it? Just sayin'...


Mr. Penn,

You are correct, but this one is kind of self evident.

See attached steel color vs. temp chart. I realize different alloys will vary, but this seems to be a good general guide based on other research. I am also aware of monitor color differences, but they aren't that far off.


Attachments:
steel color temp chart.png
steel color temp chart.png [ 24.59 KiB | Viewed 1451 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Question about driving rigid stays...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:56 am 

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 9:42 am
Posts: 24
[quote="Newriver400"]

AND, something is fishy. All photos attached by me to posts hereto in reference to the discussion have been removed, with no explanation. Though not taken by me, they were publicly posted on social media and were posted here well within the fair use exception. Further, they have disappeared from the social media site where they were originally posted. Why? If the practice is acceptable, then why would anyone want to hide it? Just sayin'...

[/quote]

Michael,

I had really hoped to stay out of this, but I'm calling you out on this one. I explained to you that last night in a PM I was the one who took those pictures and that they were either posted to my personal site or a members-only site, not a public site and that you posted my pictures publicly without my express permission. To accuse me of having those pictures pulled without explanation to you is just not true and you know it. I pulled those pictures from our private sites prior to any discussion on rypn for other reasons, not that there was any fear that any non-compliant work was being performed. [i]Again, I state that I had the pictures pulled for other reasons and I strongly resent your implication that we are attempting to hide anything.[/i]

As you know, you've had a standing invitation to visit our shop and to see the work that we were doing and you even told me that you might possibly come up this past weekend to visit us. Why in the world would I have extended such an invitation if we had anything to hide?


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 Post subject: Re: Question about driving rigid stays...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:15 am 

Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:43 am
Posts: 388
Location: Dalton, Georgia
Bill,

I did not need permission to post anything. Further, I did not mention who, where, which locomotive, or which contractor was involved. I was trying to legitimately determine if my suspicions about the methods used were justified by putting it on a forum visited by many knowledgeable in historic steam locomotive practice, including several NB ESC members.

I did not check Facebook for messages after you sent me a message there or I would have phrased my post above somewhat, but not completely, different. I further do not think that you personally have anything to hide or the pics wouldn't have been posted in the first place. But you are the volunteer coordinator, not the one responsible for the work in the now missing photos. If there isn't anything to hide, why remove the photos? There are no identifiable people in the photos I posted. Are you saying that if I had actually taken the pictures that there would have been no concerns about posting?


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 Post subject: Re: Question about driving rigid stays...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:17 am 

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:35 am
Posts: 98
Location: Strasburg, Pa.
Newriver400,

You had wondered why you would weld a bolt before driving. The reason is as follows – We typically leave 2½ to 3 threads protruding out from the sheet. We then apply the weld before driving. (Cold) The reason is the weld will not allow the bolt to mushroom as quickly and will transfer more of the energy to the part of the bolt that is in the threaded hole. This gives you a better result as far as expanding the threads for a water/steam tight fit. We then form the head which also includes the weld. As you can imagine, we cannot use a “tit” snap to do this. A specially ground blunt tool and lots of practice is required.
How do we know this works you say? We proved the procedure on the bench first by sectioning a couple of samples. We have used this method for around 25 years with excellent results.

Rick

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"When you hear an A crack with the reverse lever hooked up just right, why, you wonder what anybody'd want to dieselize for". - C. E. Pond

Strasburg Rail Road Mechanical Department


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 Post subject: Re: Question about driving rigid stays...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:35 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 710
R L Musser wrote:
Newriver400,

How do we know this works you say? We proved the procedure on the bench first by sectioning a couple of samples. We have used this method for around 25 years with excellent results.

Rick


Which makes it an established railroad practice as prescribed by the FRA.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about driving rigid stays...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:45 am 

Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:43 am
Posts: 388
Location: Dalton, Georgia
Mr. Penn (I like the pseudonym, btw),

Yes, the SRR method Rick describes may be established RR practice, but this is different from the practice observed that drive the original question. The SRR practice sounds very similar to the PRR practice as well, which comes as no surprise. The key difference here is they are driven COLD.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about driving rigid stays...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:57 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 710
Newriver400 wrote:
Mr. Penn (I like the pseudonym, btw),

Yes, the SRR method Rick describes may be established RR practice, but this is different from the practice observed that drive the original question. The SRR practice sounds very similar to the PRR practice as well, which comes as no surprise. The key difference here is they are driven COLD.


So, what is your point? What are you trying to accomplish?

If you think something illegal or shady is going on, don't you have an obligation to report it to the proper authorities, which in this case would be FRA?

Or is this just a thinly-disguised mud-slinging exercise?

And to answer before you ask, my dog is at home, not in a fight anywhere.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about driving rigid stays...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:09 am 

Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:43 am
Posts: 388
Location: Dalton, Georgia
My point is that I would not want to point something out to a legal authority if it had no basis. Thus, the reason for my original query. Further, there is no mud to be slung - I have been intentionally discreet with regard to who, what, when, and where.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about driving rigid stays...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:04 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:41 pm
Posts: 814
Location: Bowling Green, KY
Lincoln Penn wrote:
Newriver400 wrote:
Mr. Penn (I like the pseudonym, btw),

Yes, the SRR method Rick describes may be established RR practice, but this is different from the practice observed that drive the original question. The SRR practice sounds very similar to the PRR practice as well, which comes as no surprise. The key difference here is they are driven COLD.


So, what is your point? What are you trying to accomplish?

If you think something illegal or shady is going on, don't you have an obligation to report it to the proper authorities, which in this case would be FRA?

Or is this just a thinly-disguised mud-slinging exercise?

And to answer before you ask, my dog is at home, not in a fight anywhere.


So, asking a question is mud slinging?


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 Post subject: Re: Question about driving rigid stays...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:10 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:57 am
Posts: 2355
Location: Faulkland, Delaware
The photos were removed because the person who took them asked that they be removed. There has been a lot of good information shared in this thread. Please keep within the guidelines.

Thanks,

Tom Gears
Moderator


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 Post subject: Re: Question about driving rigid stays...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:17 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:05 am
Posts: 399
Just for the record. the "UP style beading/'merry-go-round' tool" was designed to lay-up/caulk a staybolt driven by a tit snap. It was not intended to solely drive staybolts, hot or cold. Please note instructions.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Question about driving rigid stays...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:05 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:47 pm
Posts: 89
Location: Portland, Or
To echo Matt's last comment, a merry go round tool is certainly not for setting the threads. I can just imagine the bolt spinning in the sheet if that were attempted! As I noted earlier, the threads must be set first with a large gun, preferably from the inside, for a merry go round to be effective. The up proceedure calls for the use of a tit snap for this purpose, I prefer to use a purpose made cup snap as it is more durable in service than the tit snap. But as with anything, these are only observations and there are many ways to skin the cat. I use the merry go round on the outside sheet only to lay down the edge and provide a good looking bolt, and find it to be faster than flat tooling.

Best,

Stathi

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Best,

Stathi

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Efstathios I. Pappas, MS
Cumbres and Toltec Scenic Railroad
spappas@cumbrestoltec.com
209 603 7363


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