How is there a conflict??

If both Mr. Allan and the Oklahoma RY Museum website say that CVSR sold #113 and #115 to OKRM in 2005, then where is there a discrepancy?

Mr. Allan says these six cars served as the primary coaches for the CVSR before the ex-PRR/MARC "Inn"-series cars arrived, so naturally they would have been painted in CVSR colors.

I misread what was posted... I do apologize!!!

I happened on a shot of a former ATSF car now lettered for the Wheeling & Lake Erie and it reminded me that there are some additional Budd coaches that might be able to be accounted for being operated on excursions for the Orrville Railroad Historical Society.

The car, RPCX 103, appears to be from the 3072 - 3101 series...
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2121963
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3545345

As a follow-up on RPCX 103 this information was found on the Orrville RR Historical Society website:

"This coach was originally delivered to the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Railway, numbered 3155 in 1946 from the Budd Company, lot number ZA7, as a 52 seat coach.

"The 3155 escaped the Amtrak consolidation being sold to the Metropolitan Transit Authority of New York in 1970 where it was renumbered 2438 and converted into an 86 seat car for operation on the Westchester - Harlem commuter line. MTA then donated the car in 1985 to the Valley Railroad Company in Connecticut.

"Later that same year, the 2438 was sold for scrap.

"ORHS came to possess the car in 1986. The car was converted to 68 seats with room for satellite food service. Further improvements included paint work, new windows, carpeting added to the wall and ceiling and recovered seats."

So now we can account for another one of these former Santa Fe coaches that went to commuter service.

Okay, now I'm confused--

Using pictures I've located, I had listed #3155/#2438 as being located in Madison, WI, at the MILW depot with another ex-AT&SF coach!

Here's a picture of the #2438 in Madison: http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3102/3118966676_fa96fd357a_o.jpg (Earl C. Leatherberry photo)

In addition, earlier in this thread the cars that the Valley RR had purchased were identified, and #3155/#2438 was not one of them!

So, somewhere along the way, looks like a number got mis-transcribed and we're left with duplicates!

The plot thickens...

"The 3155 escaped the Amtrak consolidation being sold to the Metropolitan Transit Authority of New York in 1970 where it was renumbered 2438 and converted into an 86 seat car for operation on the Westchester - Harlem commuter line. MTA then donated the car in 1985 to the Valley Railroad Company in Connecticut."

Not quite.

It's been almost 30 years (where does the time go?), so let me see if I can summon up the real story---

New cars were arriving at Metro-North and dozens of old cars--- old NH cars, cars MTA bought in the 70s to replace old NYC cars from the 20s, the 1970s New York State-rebuilt D&H cars (some burned and sagging from a GCT fire)--- all were sold for scrap to a New Haven area auto recycler, Chuck & Eddie's. It was almost 140 cars, I recall.

RMNE (not VRR) had bid on and won the previous fall, Amtrak RS-3 138-- NH 529. There were other non-runners at New Haven when we selected 138; C&E got most of the others.

RMNE started hearing about C&E and the load of stuff they were amassing for scrap, and we made contact with them.

C&E bought Amtrak RS-3 and E-8s derelict at New Haven Shops; that was the source of RMNE's "New York Central 4096" (actually UP 912, Amtrak 417), now at Danbury. Feb. 1968, RMNE bought that unit from C&E with the idea of a cosmetic replication of an NYC or B&M unit. We soon were making a deal with Chuck for stripping rights to the Amtrak RS-3s he'd won at auction. And I noticed all those passenger cars he had started cutting up...

Many cars had nice fat new AP-bearing 36" wheelsets. And there were 4 or 6 of the Budd ATSF coaches, filthy but overall in good shape.

Chuck got double the scrap price from RMNE. He was happy: no labor to cut/chop/render the stuff. We sold over a dozen wheelsets for about $600 each, we paid about half that to the scrapper. His burner (a guy known as "The Rev") simply cut the truck frames apart and left the (marked) wheelsets for retrieval.

I made a connection with Bill Fuehring in Ohio; he came to Connecticut and looked 'em over and bought the 4 ATSF cars from RMNE. The cars changed hands at the site where Chuck & Eddie were cutting all the stuff. Bill moved them out from there, the old Cedar Hill Yard in North Haven.

End of the day: Bill got a bunch of decent coaches for Orrville. RMNE got a nice cash infusion, which helped our mid-80s projects. And Chuck got more than he expected for doing little or no work.

And, we bought a "parts" RS-3 from C&E, Amtrak 140 (originally PRR).

Howard P.
Those Were The Days, CT

Current Status Update:

AT&SF plr-obs #3241 (Budd, 1938, Lot #996) to coach #2948 (1959) to PC #2408 to NJT #2408 to Wallowa Union Railroad (WURR) #2408 (Elgin, OR)--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1720946 (Mark Herren photo)

Should be WURR 3241. Great to have this history known!!!

I know this is a old post, but I just found it, and have some additional information.

Here is a list of all the Sante Fe Coaches that Indiana Transportation Museum has now (they have an updated roster on their website):

1937 Santa Fe (ITM) 3072 Budd Coach Stainless - 84 Seats Operational
1937 Santa Fe (ITM) 3078 Budd Coach Stainless - 82 Seats Operational
1937 Santa Fe (ITM) 3080 Budd Coach Stainless - 84 Seats Stored
1937 Santa Fe (ITM) 3081 Budd Coach Stainless - 84 Seats Operational
1937 Santa Fe (ITM) 3082 Budd Coach Stainless - 84 Seats Stored
1937 Santa Fe (ITM) 3083 Budd Coach Stainless - 84 Seats Stored
1937 Santa Fe (ITM) 3092 Budd Coach Stainless - 84 Seats Operational
1937 Santa Fe (ITM) 3093 Budd Coach Stainless - 82 Seats Operational
1937 Santa Fe (ITM) 3094 Budd Coach Stainless - 84 Seats Stored
1937 Santa Fe (ITM) 3095 Budd Coach Stainless - ?? Seats Stored
1937 Santa Fe (ITM) 3096 Budd Coach Stainless - 84 Seats Operational
1937 Santa Fe (ITM) 3097 Budd Coach Stainless - 78 Seats Overhaul
1937 Santa Fe (ITM) 3098 Budd Coach Stainless - 84 Seats Stored
1937 Santa Fe (ITM) 3099 Budd Coach Stainless - 80 Seats Operational

The only one that isn't listed of the 15 is the one that was burned by vandals.

Have you tried contacting ITM to see if someone there knows the number of the one that was burned?

Anyway, that's some help to your list.

John

Thanks, John!



The #3080 (PC/NJT #2400) was one of the cars that was acquired by the Valley RR for the A/C components and then sold to Steve Zuiderveen, who resold the car to Les Kasten in March 1988. ITM likely acquired the #3080 from KRSX in 1989.

Besides #3080, 4 of these cars had not previously been identified as being owned by ITM: #3082, #3083, #3094, and #3097. All 14 of the ITM cars that have been identified were originally 52 seat chairs built in Lot #977.

According to W. David Randall's "Railway Passenger Car Annual, Volume 6" (1984), the #3086 was parted out and scrapped in 1981.

I am still looking for disposition info for 49 of the 98 AT&SF chairs which were sold for commuter service:

44 seat chair #2871 1972 to PC 108 seats #2464 to NJDOT.

44 seat chair #2890 1972 to PC 108 seats #2465 to NJDOT.

44 seat chair #2924 1972 to PC 108 seats #2466 to NJDOT.

52 seat chair #3073 1969 to NJDOT 82 seats #3073.

52 seat chair #3077 1969 to NJDOT 82 seats #3077.

52 seat chair #3088 1969 to NJDOT 82 seats #3088.

52 seat chair #3100 1970 to PC 84 seats #2402 to NJDOT.

48 seat chair with news stand #3102 1969 to PC 100 seats #2410 to NJDOT.

52 seat chair #3104 1969 to PC 100 seats #2412 to NJDOT.

52 seat chair #3110 1969 to PC 100 seats #2417 to NJDOT.

52 seat chair #3112 1970 to PC 100 seats #2418 to NJDOT.

52 seat chair #3115 1970 to PC 84 seats #2405 to NJDOT.

46 seat club lounge #3117 (ex-28 seat club lounge 26 seat chair, nee-52 seat chair) 1968 to MTA commuter club #2178 later renumbered to #4450 (2nd).

52 seat chair #3119 1970 to PC 84 seats #2406 to NJDOT.

52 seat chair #3142 1970 to PC 78 seats #2427 to MTA, retired in 1982.

52 seat chair #3144 1970 to PC 86 seats #2428 to MTA, retired in 1982.

52 seat chair #3147 1970 to PC 86 seats #2431 to MTA, retired in 1982.

52 seat chair #3148 1970 to PC 86 seats #2432 to MTA, retired in 1982.

52 seat chair #3149 1970 to PC 86 seats #2433 to MTA, retired in 1982.

52 seat chair #3151 1970 to PC 86 seats #2435 to MTA, retired in 1982.

52 seat chair #3152 1970 to PC 86 seats #2436 to MTA, retired in 1982.

52 seat chair #3154 1970 to PC 86 seats #2437 to MTA, retired in 1982.

52 seat chair #3156 1970 to PC 86 seats #2439 to MTA, retired in 1982.

52 seat chair #3157 1970 to PC 102 seats #2440 to MTA, retired in 1982.

52 seat chair #3158 1970 to PC 102 seats #2441 to MTA, retired in 1982.

50 seat divided chair #3187 1970 to PC 78 seats #2460 to MTA, retired in 1982.

50 seat divided chair #3188 1970 to PC 78 seats #2461 to MTA, retired in 1982.

44 seat chair #2957 (ex-36 seat chair 2 seat smoker observation #3240, exx-58 seat chair 2 seat smoker observation, nee-32 seat parlor 1 seat lounge observation) 1970 to PC 100 seats #2426 to NJDOT.

44 seat chair #2949 (ex-32 seat parlor 1 seat lounge observation #3242) 1969 to PC 84 seats #2409 to NJDOT.

48 seat chair #2792 (ex-42 seat chair 2 seat smoker observation #3247) 1972 to PC 108 seats #2463 to NJDOT.

48 seat chair #2796 (ex-8S-2DB-2C sleeper Salahkai) 1971 to PC 108 seats #2443 to NJDOT.

48 seat chair #2803 (ex-8S-2DB-2C sleeper Segatoa) 1971 to PC 108 seats #2448 to NJDOT.

48 seat chair #2797 (ex-8S-2DB-2C sleeper Tonalea) 1972 to PC 108 seats #2444 to NJDOT.

48 seat chair #2799 (ex-8S-2DB-2C sleeper Toreva) 1972 to PC 108 seats #2445 to NJDOT.

48 seat chair #2801 (ex-8S-2DB-2C sleeper Wupatki) 1971 to PC 108 seats #2446 to NJDOT.

48 seat chair #2802 (ex-8S-2DB-2C sleeper Yampai) 1971 to PC 108 seats #2447 to NJDOT.

44 seat chair #2950 (ex-14S sleeper Dinnebito) 1970 to PC 78 seats #2450 to MTA.

44 seat chair #2951 (ex-14S sleeper Ganado) 1970 to PC 78 seats #2451 to MTA.

44 seat chair #2953 (ex-14S sleeper Havasu) 1970 to PC 78 seats #2453 to MTA, retired in 1982 and held.

44 seat chair #2954 (ex-14S sleeper Hoskinnini) 1970 to PC 78 seats #2454 to MTA, retired in 1982 and held.

48 seat chair #2805 (ex-17RM-1S sleeper Chinle) 1971 to PC 108 seats #2467 to NJDOT.

48 seat chair #2806 (ex-17RM-1S sleeper Maito) 1971 to PC 108 seats #2468 to NJDOT.

48 seat chair #2807 (ex-17RM-1S sleeper Otowi) 1971 to PC 108 seats #2469 to NJDOT.

48 seat chair #2810 (ex-17RM-1S sleeper Paria) 1970 to PC 76 seats #2459 to MTA, retired in 1982 and held.

48 seat chair #2809 (ex-17RM-1S sleeper Tuba) 1971 to PC 108 seats #2470 to NJDOT.

48 seat chair #2812 (ex-1DB-4DR sleeper 18 seat lounge observation Betahtakin, originally 17 seats) 1970 to PC 78 seats #2456 to MTA.

48 seat chair #2815 (ex-1DB-4DR sleeper 18 seat lounge observation Biltabito, originally 17 seats) 1970 to PC 78 seats #2458 to MTA.

48 seat chair #2813 (ex-1DB-4DR sleeper 18 seat lounge observation Chaistla, originally 17 seats) 1970 to PC 78 seats #2457 to MTA, retired in 1982 and held.

44 seat chair #2956 (ex-6DB-2C-2DR sleeper Taos) 1970 to PC 100 seats #2425 to NJDOT.

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

As reported in the CCN auction thread, the #3090, which was stored for a time in Ayer, MA, was later moved to Delaware, OH, and is now for sale: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38687

answers wanted...
The Florida Railroad Museum in Parrish Fl. Bought the three wreck damage cars from the Orville Ohio group. Two are ACL and SAL, but the third RPCX 103 is listed as being ATSF 3155, MTA 2438. As stated above the 3155/2438 is in WI. So the question is, what car did ORHS keep and make RPCX 103. Would really like to know its full history to tell the story, but only want to tell the real story.

I searched the car over for any old markings, nothing. except for the WLE and the RPCX 103. Not even a stain on the stainless of the PC logo or that circle logo with arrow? Behind a blanked out window there was MTA blue on the window band.

The car was 86 seats when MTA was done with it. the center section is still the original Santa Fe seating, and walk overs added to both ends where the restrooms once was.

starting looking under the seats for numbers on the seat bottoms. (many times these are marked as they took them out for cleaning and repair) Along the line however many seats ended up where ever as we have seats mark for many different 31** numbers and many different 26** and 24** numbers???

Any help identifying which car the ORHS had sold to us would be great.

Glenn

A related question: when EL/PC/CNJ/CR operated these cars in the 1970s and 1980s, what air-conditioning system did they have? Did they have SF-style steam-ejector air conditioning? The earlier comments about the Valley buying these cars to strip out the a/c equipment interests me - I never heard of anyone wanting to keep around steam-ejector a/c systems.

These cars seldom showed up on the CNJ/CR Raritan Valley Line, but when they did, I enjoyed riding on them as a kid.

Chris.

For a number of years in the late '70's/early '80's there was a stainless coach lettered for Penn Central that sat on a siding in Clinton (Warwick Jct.), Ohio. I have no idea who owned it, or why it ended up there. I never photographed it, always being chronically short on money for film at that time. It was just something that was there, and I was no PC fan. However, in more closely reading this thread and thinking back on it, I think that coach was probably one of the ex-Santa Fe coaches, one that never made it from PC to NJT. As far as I know, it was either scrapped on-site, or in the area over 25 years ago, certainly by the time CSX finished ripping out the former PRR connections of the old Cleveland, Akron & Columbus sub at Warwick and single-tracking the main from Warwick to CP Lambert in late 1990.