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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:07 am 
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Thanks to Tim Andrews, John Winkler, Stephen S. Syfrett, Hayneshopcat, Gary Gray, and ETA for all the responses! All the information presented has resulted in the disposition list for the Budd Lot #9624-030 diners being complete, and the disposition list for the P-S Lot #6814 sleepers being 2/3 complete!

Cars with unknown current whereabouts or final dispositions (24 total):

10RM-6DB sleepers (20 sub-total):

1. FEC "Brazil" sold to CN 12/1966* as #2133 "Ecum Secum River" to VIA Rail #2133 to private owner as "Ecum Secum River". Amtrak registration #800008. Anyone know the current location?

2. FEC "Chile" sold to CN 12/1966* as #2134 "Nashweak River" to VIA Rail #2134**.

3. FEC "Guatemala" sold to CN 12/1966* as #2130 "Terra Nova River" to VIA Rail #2130**.

4. FEC "Venezuela" sold to CN 12/1966* as #2132 "Moose River" to VIA Rail #2132**.

*12/1966 is conjecture based on the "Withheld from Lease" dates and the dates of sale for the other seven FEC 10-6 sleepers sold to CN, which were between 11/22/1966 and 12/19/1966.

**Can anyone confirm that the last three (CN #2134, #2130 and #2132) actually made it to the VIA startup date (4/1/1978), or were they retired by CN before then? (I don't have a copy of the Bytown publication, so my info on cars in Canada is far from complete.)

5. SOU #2012 "Saluda River" to Amtrak in 1979 as #2855. Retired before 4/1983. Does anyone know where this car went afterwards? Scrapped?? Mexico?? (I'll check MEXLIST to see if it turns up there.)

6. SOU #2015 "Rappahannock River" to Amtrak in 1979 as #2858. To Nippert-Gator Rail Tours to New Georgia RR. Anyone know the current location?

7. SOU #2001 "Altamaha River" to Amtrak in 1971 as #2814. To Nippert-Gator. To private owner in Los Angeles. Anyone know the current location?

8. SOU #2007 "Otter River" to Amtrak in 1971 as #2815. To Anbel Corporation for Mexico. Anyone have info? (I don't have a copy of "The Cars That Went to Mexico"--I'll see if MEXLIST has anything)

9. SOU #2009 "Potomac River" to Amtrak in 1971 as #2816. To Anbel Corporation for Mexico. To NdeM as #745. (I'll check MEXLIST for info on #2009 as well.)

10. CNO&TP #3400 "Emory River" to Amtrak in 1979 as #2867. To Nippert-Gator to New Georgia RR. Anyone know the current location?

11. L&N #3400 "Mobile River" to Amtrak in 1971 as #2810. Retired at unknown date and stored at Beech Grove. Retirement date 6/2005! Sold or scrapped?

12. PRR #8353 "Delaware River" to PC #4360. To Amtrak as #2709. Retired 9/1975. Disposition?

13. PRR #8354 "Middle River" to PC #4374. To Amtrak as #2797. Retired and sold 1/1984. To whom??

14. PRR #8352 "Bush River"
15. PRR #8355 "Patapsco River"
16. PRR #8357 "Schuylkill River"
17. PRR #8358 "Susquehanna River"
18. PRR #8356 "Raritan River"

Any of these 5 PRR-owned cars still floating around? PC numbers??

19. L&N #3410 "Green River" to Amtrak in 1971 as #2812. Retired 1979. To NdeM as #737. To Mexico via Anbel?? (I'll check MEXLIST for more.)

20. L&N #3412 "Barren River". No information whatsoever. Anyone know? Scrapped?

1MR-2DR-21 seat buffet lounge sleeper (1 sub-total):

21. SOU #2353 "Crescent Shores". No information whatsoever. Anyone know? Scrapped?

5DB-22 seat buffet lounge sleeper observation (3 sub-total):

22. SOU #2300 "Royal Arch" (1st) to "Luther Calvin Norris" to mid-train 11DB sleeper. No information whatsoever. Anyone know? Scrapped?

23. CNO&TP #3499 "Royal Palm" to mid-train 11DB sleeper. To private owner. Amtrak registration #800347***.

***CNO&TP #3499 "Royal Palm" (#800347), SOU #2301 "Royal Court" (#800348), and SOU #2351 "Crescent Harbor" (#800349) all have adjacent Amtrak #800xxx numbers. That usually infers common ownership and/or shopwork. Anyone know who owned these three cars at one time??

24. L&N #3300 "Royal Canal". No information whatsoever. Anyone know? Scrapped?

Thanks again to everyone who responded.

Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Coaches will be coming up soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:08 am 

Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 11:27 am
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Location: Switching the Coach Yard
21, 22, and 24 are all scrapped now.

Crescent Shores bought the farm in the Elma VA wreck.

Royal Arch #1 was wrecked and subsequently scrapped after the 1974 wreck in Alabama.

Royal Canal was initially in Mobile, AL with a private owner after the L&N sold it. It later went to the Preston W. Duffy Co. in Columbus, Ohio. While in Columbus it stayed too long in a bad neighborhood and was torched while still in a very complete state -- all the way down to drink stands and lounge chairs. The owner later donated it to the Orrville RRHS and they parted it out and scrapped it. Sad really.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:11 am 

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Location: Switching the Coach Yard
... and the common owner you refer to would be Don Primi.

ETA


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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:44 pm 
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etalcos wrote:
21, 22, and 24 are all scrapped now.

Crescent Shores bought the farm in the Elma VA wreck.

Royal Arch #1 was wrecked and subsequently scrapped after the 1974 wreck in Alabama.

Royal Canal was initially in Mobile, AL with a private owner after the L&N sold it. It later went to the Preston W. Duffy Co. in Columbus, Ohio. While in Columbus it stayed too long in a bad neighborhood and was torched while still in a very complete state -- all the way down to drink stands and lounge chairs. The owner later donated it to the Orrville RRHS and they parted it out and scrapped it. Sad really.

ETA


etalcos wrote:
... and the common owner you refer to would be Don Primi.

ETA


Thanks, ETA, for the info! Too bad about the L&N "Royal Canal"!

Does anyone know the date and location of the wreck in Alabama in 1974? Was this the same wreck that scratched diner #3310 from the roster? Any other cars damaged and subsequently scrapped or henceforth used as parts sources from either the 1974 Alabama or the 1978 Elma, VA, wrecks?

I checked MEXLIST for information concerning the three sleepers that went to Mexico: SOU #2007 "Otter River" (I don't have confirmation, just that it went to Anbel), SOU #2009 "Potomac River" (NdeM #745 via Anbel), and L&N #3410 "Green River" (NdeM #737 via Anbel?). I also checked MEXLIST to see if SOU #2012 "Saluda River" was mentioned (the only SOU-owned 10-6 sold to Amtrak that does not have a disposition). When I entered the names and searched, none of the four turned up. So does anyone have additional info on the first three, and any info on what happened to the "Saluda River"?

Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Coaches will be coming up later today (hopefully).

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:00 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:04 am
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Shenendoah River is still with TVRM although may be going to new home in not too distant future. It and the Holston River came to TVRM in a trade deal with Old Kenner. The cars had been stored in South Philedelphia and were pretty well gutted with most of the windows knocked out and boarded over. Time hasn't made them any better.

If any of the other missing cars were in the same place they probably weren't any better and were put out of their misery.

I used to keep every Amtrak sale list, don't know if they are still somewhere in the home office or not, this is so much fun I'm going to have to dig around and see if I can find them.

Tim Andrews
(anxiously waiting for coach list)

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:20 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:04 am
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I found the hand written listing someone gave me for the New Georgia Sale. Three of the cars from Nippert were sold under their Amtrak numbers. I can not prove that the info is 100% correct for NS17 the note says "Buyer ? older"
2867 sold to "Ken Kesler-Montana" $5,250
2853 sold to "Ken Olsten=Nashvillle Group" $4,400+10%
2858 sold to "N Orleans chapter for wheels alone"

There is also a listing for "#2000 NYC 10&6 sleeper=$6,500 +10%" doesn't say who it went to.

Does anyone actually have the New Georgia roster? It would be interesting to cross reference the sale list.

Tim Andrews

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:04 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 2:02 am
Posts: 620
Location: Albany, Georgia
Quote:
6. SOU #2015 "Rappahannock River" to Amtrak in 1979 as #2858. To Nippert-Gator Rail Tours to New Georgia RR. Anyone know the current location?


At the time of the New Georgia Railroad equipment on August 24, 1995, the Rappahannock River and a HW coach, (NGRR 1102, ex-Hartwell Railroad, exx-MKT 379 (?), orig. MKT 904) were both up on jacks in the shop awaiting work that never happened. Trucks, couplers and draft gear had all been removed. The auction company, in their infinite wisdom, decided to sell the trucks and couplers from both cars separate from the car bodies. The late Greg Dodd bought the HW trucks and couplers for Great Smoky Mountains Railroad (not personally) for about $2500. The Rappahannock River trucks and couplers were sold to Ken Keeler, a car and parts broker from Washington state for $6000.

According to my notes from the auction, the body of 1102 sold for $1500. According to a friend who was still there at the time it sold for $3500. Not sure which is accurate. I recorded that the Rappahannock River body sold for $3250. Apparently, from what I've been told, the purchaser of the Rappahannock River either didn't or couldn't pay for the car and it wound up being given to the man who purchased the NGRR 1102 body, just to get it off the property. The buyer of the 1102 agreed apparently because he owned a trucking company and could move them relatively easily once they arrived near his farm. Both car bodies shipped from the Pullman Shops on TTX flats.

Both car bodies were moved to private farm property in southeast Georgia (north-northwest of Waycross) where they still sit. Unfortunately, I do not know if they have been taken care of or if they are being used for anything, but as far as I can determine they are still there. I spoke with the owner in December 2001 and at that time he had no interest in letting either of them go.

Also, I have a notes indicating that the Pacolet River (SR 2853) sold at the New Georgia auction for $4500 and the Emory River (SR 2867) sold for $5250. No record of who bought either. Same for Tugalo River, NS 17, which I recorded as selling for $5500.

A&WP Chattahoochee River was sold/donated pre-auction to East Tennessee Rail Car in Knoxville, TN, winding up at SARM. Along with it went the New Georgia crew car NGRR 1401, ex-SR RPO 34, (which came to the New Georgia via the Hartwell, who acquired it from Heart of Dixie Chapter NRHS) and NGRR 1501, diner "Connell-Kennedy", of SLSF ancestry.

Tim, I don't have the complete New Georgia roster, and they purchased a bunch of cars after I left the Georgia Building Authority in late 1986. I once tried to put a roster together but finally gave up. I don't see reference to a "NYC 10-6" sleeper in the auction brochure, but there is a listing for a "1948 10-6 PS Sleeper". No photo and no car number listed. From published roster info I have (see p. 48, Trains Mag., Feb. 1989 by Steve Glischinski) "NGRR 2000" was built in 1948 as "Scioto River", to CN 2092 "Hay River" in 1965, to VIA "Hay River" in 1978, then to a private owner before going to NGRR in 1987. Might this have been another Al Nippert car? Because of the car number (NGRR 2000) this would have been a smooth-sided car.

Also, a twin-unit 1952-built Budd kitchen-lounge-diner, carrying the NGRR numbers 1511 and 1512 was sold separately, with the 16-seat kitchen-lounge fetching $75,000 and the 84-seat lounge-diner bringing $55,000, then they were combined and together brought $170,000. I have no idea who bought them or what ancestry the twin-unit had.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:23 pm 
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Thanks, Tim, for the clarification on the "Shenandoah River" and for the sale info on the sleepers New Georgia got from Nippert-Gator Rail Tours.

Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

I'm writing up the coach list as we speak. I don't have as much info about where all the coaches ended up, so it'll be fun to hear from everyone about where they are now or when they kicked the bucket.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:31 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 2:02 am
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Location: Albany, Georgia
Quote:
Two of the eleven 14RM-4DB sleepers built to Plan #4153C are now in private ownership:

SOU #2204 "Paint Rock Valley" (assigned to the Tennessean). To private owner in LaGrange, GA.


The shell of 2204 is actually in Hogansville, GA along with the shells of CNO&TP ACF diner-lounge 3899 and SR ACF diner-lounge 3399. Located at the former A&WP depot in Hogansville.

Edit:
To clarify the reference elsewhere to Warm Springs, GA, the 2204, 3399 & 3899 were three of 5 cars stored in Warm Springs, GA, and were purchased and moved by the current owner to Hogansville in 2004. I have photos taken in Warm Springs on March 30, 2004 and more photos taken October 14, 2004 after relocation to Hogansville. The other two Warm Springs cars (SR 1017 & 1018, modernized HW coaches)were also relocated to Hogansville. All 5 cars had been heavily vandalized in Warm Springs and not much of the interiors survived.

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Last edited by Stephen S. Syfrett on Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:08 pm 
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Thanks, Stephen, for the additional info on the New Georgia auction and for the clarification on #2204 "Paint Rock Valley"!

SOU #2008 "Pacolet River" to Amtrak in 1979 as #2853 sold to Nippert-Gator Rail Tours in 1982 as #2853 to New Georgia in 1985? as #2853 sold via auction to Ken Olsten 8/24/1995 is now at Tennessee Central Railway Museum in Nashville as TCRX #2008.

CNO&TP #3400 "Emory River" to Amtrak in 1979 as #2867 sold to Nippert-Gator Rail Tours in 1982 as #2867 to New Georgia in 1985? as #2867 sold via auction to Ken Keeler out here in Washington State. I have not seen any photos, heard any rumors, or noted any evidence of the "Emory River" being out here, so I don't know where it is now. Does anyone know if it is indeed here in the Evergreen State or somewhere else?

SOU #2019 "Tugalo River" retained by SOU to NS as #17 with Tuscan Red letterboards to New Georgia in 199? as #17 sold via auction to Atlanta Chapter NRHS and is now at their Southeastern Railway Museum in Duluth, GA, as SMRX #17.

NYC 10RM-6DB sleeper #10223 "Scioto River" was built in 2/1949 by P-S in Lot #6790 to Plan #4123 in NYC Class #2190. Sold to CN in 3/1965 as #2092 "Hay River" to VIA Rail 4/1/1978 as #2092 "Hay River". Retired and sold to private owner at unknown date. To New Georgia in 1987 as #2000. Sold via auction to whom??

Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Coaches coming up next.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:28 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:04 am
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Steve-
I show the same price info on the twin dinner. The notes I have say they were sold to the Florida Central and they were Budd built, does that make them ex PRR (which I kinda remember)?

I show 23 cars on my list of sold cars.

Tim Andrews

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:39 pm 

Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 11:27 am
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Location: Switching the Coach Yard
The only car SARM ever took delivery on was the RPO #34. The Frisco Diner Lounge while "interesting" was also quite rotten. It was sold to the Frisco Museum folks in Springfield, MO and I think has now gone to RR car heaven. I'll look to see what notes I have on the Chattahoochee River.

The twin unit was a Budd PRR set -- I want to say "Congo Cars" not Broadway.

The NYC 10-6 may have been the bargain of the day. It was ready to roll and sitting there on power in the building. It sold to some nice folks from South Carolina who were going to upgrade it for Amtrak Service, less the roomettes. I probabaly have his name in the files somewhere.

We bought a lot of stuff (parts) at this sale mostly bidding against the scrapper. My great regret was not buying the 6 spare E-8 wheelsets -- IIRC the scrapper bought them for roughly $250 per set.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:43 pm 

Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 11:27 am
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Location: Switching the Coach Yard
Tim Andrews wrote:

I used to keep every Amtrak sale list, don't know if they are still somewhere in the home office or not, this is so much fun I'm going to have to dig around and see if I can find them.

Tim Andrews
(anxiously waiting for coach list)


...and here we thought you were serious ALL the time <grin>!

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:13 pm 

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L&N "Pear River" exists at the Kentucky Railway Museum. I don't know the number off hand, but it was part of the "River" series of 10-6 sleepers for the Crescent.

It was available as of a year ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Surviving SOU Lightweight Cars
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:27 pm 
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wilkinsd wrote:
L&N "Pear River" exists at the Kentucky Railway Museum. I don't know the number off hand, but it was part of the "River" series of 10-6 sleepers for the Crescent.

It was available as of a year ago.


Thanks, David, for notifying us that KRM had put the "Pearl River" up for sale!

L&N #3401 "Pearl River" to Amtrak in 1971 as #2811. Retired in 1976. Sold to Kentucky Railway Museum.

Found some more information on the WofA sleepers on the Georgia Railroad-West Point Route group over on Yahoo! Finances:

WofA "Alabama River" used in executive service after 1970. Converted by Seaboard System to a Technical Research Car in 1983 with the removal of the 10 roomettes (the 6 bedrooms were retained) as SBD #774501. Renumbered to CSXT #994501.

WofA "Royal Palace" sold in 1958! to Joseph B. Lanier of Panama City, FL. To Gold Coast Limited of Orlando in 199? Currently stored on the Morristown & Erie in Whippany, NJ.

Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Still typing up the coach list. Coming soon.

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