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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:33 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:15 am
Posts: 111
Location: At large
I apologize for the personal attack. It was un-professional of me.

Now that I have calmed down, I will say that ARTA's tactics have been low down and despicable form day one. It is truly degusting that they have used misinformation and taxpayer sympathy to gain support for their personal agenda. Many people that are "drinking their cool aid" have no idea what a wonderful thing the hardworking volunteers of the Adirondack Scenic are doing. This operation is something to take pride in but ARTA will have you believe they are spoiled children that just want to play with their trains and have New York State fit the bill. They also have no intention on building a recreational trail for the masses. They instead just want the trains gone and the right of way vacant so they can do with it as they please. If anyone thinks this is really about a trail they are kidding themselves.

ARTA's comments on their Facebook page should speak for themselves. They are right and everybody else is wrong and they cannot be bothered with the facts.

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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:00 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:46 am
Posts: 2002
Location: S.F. Bay Area
That's what the "edit" button is for. Apologize yes, but also remove the offending.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:40 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 6:19 am
Posts: 4212
Location: southeastern USA
Results speak louder than propaganda.........the railroad NEEDS to get a lot done, and fast, and demonstrate its worth to the local communities in the process. Otherwise, all they are doing is making marginal improvements that fail to counteract the loud opposition.

dave

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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:14 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:44 pm
Posts: 39
Dave wrote:
Results speak louder than propaganda.........the railroad NEEDS to get a lot done, and fast, and demonstrate its worth to the local communities in the process.


I think this is true of both the Adirondack Scenic AND the Catskill Mountain RR. Were i faced with their situation (and I am not, so take this with a suitable amount of salt) I would pour as much of your available resources into opening up their respective lines to the fullest extent possible. The scenic railroad I work for is, like both NY lines, a contract operator on a rail line owned by a government entity (in this case a two county rail authority) and while we don't face any significant opposition to our existence, we absolutely find ways to improve both our and the track owner's bottom line. Storing freight cars online during the off season for example nets the rail line a switching fee, and the rail authority income from car storage. Its a win-win for all involved. While the CMRR's isolation would seem to prevent them from storing cars, the Adirondack Scenic definitely seems like they could. Now they're earning money year round, AND they're utilizing a supposedly "rotten" railroad for something other than what to many people is apparently "playing trains", while also avoiding the risk of hauling "dangerous cargo".

Again, just my 2 cents from afar.

Nick Turinetti


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:21 pm 

Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:41 am
Posts: 37
1- What we have here is a failure to communicate and a lack of RESPECT!
2- Would the Saboteurs wish this on anyone or anyone else or destruction of their own property ?
If so I feel sorry for those people or individuals...

Mr.Starr


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:22 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 6:07 am
Posts: 528
Location: Philadelphia Pa
The Fireman wrote:
.....Storing freight cars online during the off season for example nets the rail line a switching fee, and the rail authority income from car storage. Its a win-win for all involved. While the CMRR's isolation would seem to prevent them from storing cars, the Adirondack Scenic definitely seems like they could. Now they're earning money year round, AND they're utilizing a supposedly "rotten" railroad for something other than what to many people is apparently "playing trains", while also avoiding the risk of hauling "dangerous cargo".

Again, just my 2 cents from afar.

Nick Turinetti


That's a great idea - IF you're not already dealing with glorified NIMBY's who have an agenda.

Can you imagine what flack will be given if "old rusty freight train cars, that probably carried TOXIC materials and coated with lead paint"...would be place along these routes?

I'm not implying the cars would actually be as described, but these folks seem keen to build the propaganda wagon with anything they can.

Ask these folks, why they are so concerned with using railroad lines?... if they want trails, let them BUILD THEIR OWN!... Lets see how wonderful they are when they see the price tag and ecological destruction process to do so. Let them pay for the environmental impact studies... see how quickly they run away.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:32 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:51 pm
Posts: 6836
Location: Baltimore, MD
traingeek8223 wrote:
It is truly degusting that they have used misinformation and taxpayer sympathy to gain support for their personal agenda.


But we, too, have used "misinformation" and "taxpayer sympathy" to garner support for OUR personal agendas--grants for restoration, public lands for museums and dollars for station relocations and restoration, the outright acquisitions of the Cumbres & Toltec and Cass Scenic RRs, the formation of Steamtown and several state railroad museums, etc.

You may consider it "lying," "cheating," and "stealing" in this specific case. And that's not out of the question, and they aren't doing themselves favors with vandalism. But it's equally possible, if not more so, that they're just playing the "political" game better--not just the "elected officials in government" game, but marketing, community relations, awareness, etc.

I have watched as many rail museums mature. You know they've reached maturity when they hire an executive director, manager, administrator, or whoever that DIDN'T rise up through the ranks of "playing trains" or "scraping paint," but instead is a business and public relations specialist. Someplace like the Catskill Mountain RR, the Gold Coast RR Museum, the Cuyahoga Valley, whatever doesn't need a guy that can tell a GP30 from a GP35, or knows the differences between a K-36 and K-37, or even a 6L from a 26L. They need someone that can effectively network with the politicians and the foundations, find grant programs and funding sources, identify effective marketing strategies, keep the trains running or the lights on, and keep visitors not only coming but content.

(I mentioned an incident earlier where a community demanded a business license from an operation that had been around without one for years. The staff that was at that place was initially flummoxed; had an effective director been around at the time, he might have resolved the matter in minutes back in the back office with a phone call or three.)

I have watched the owners of proposed bars go to neighbors and neighborhood associations and engage them in the planning process. I've seen others just show up at the liquor board meeting without doing so. The former usually get approved. The latter often get fought by the neighbors.
One plays the political game. The other doesn't. And we're not talking bribery here.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:29 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:13 am
Posts: 372
Location: Baltimore. MD
If the line is full of storage cars you cannot drive a snowmobile between the rails!

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:38 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:44 pm
Posts: 39
SZuiderveen wrote:
If the line is full of storage cars you cannot drive a snowmobile between the rails!

Steve


Are there no sidings/spurs/wyes etc that can be used? The number of stored cars does not need to be large to begin with, nor does the line need to be filled completely: place them in areas that are conductive to going around them or store them or on portions of the line not frequented by snowmobilers.

Nick Turinetti


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:21 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:51 pm
Posts: 6836
Location: Baltimore, MD
Update:

Quote:
The railroad will be offering a $10,000 reward for the arrest and successful prosecution of the offenders, Executive Director Bethan Maher tells Trains News Wire.

David Link owns the locomotive and leases it to the railroad. He tells local media the locomotive was rewired eight years ago. Damage could cost $25,000-$50,000 to repair, not counting lost revenue.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:29 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:41 am
Posts: 2197
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
I'm not going to say much of anything, just am setting this out for you to see

First, a post by the moderator of the Adirondack Rail Trail Association's Facebook page on the incident:

"Contrary to current accusations floated by people on Next Stop Tupper Lake's FB page. ARTA has nothing to do with this and does not condone this action taken by a person or persons to disable the engine in Lake Placid. Anyone with information about this action should contact the Lake Placid Police." [There is a link with this to a news story on this incident.]

Below are the following comments by ARTA members and trail supporters on this thread:

Ken Lawless: "When Jim McCully first started promoting a rail trail, the ASR accused him of sabotaging the train by dumping water in the gas. It was later found to be negligence. The train had not been properly winterized. I am skeptical of any accusation of "sabotage" from an organization desparate for public sympathy."

Anthony Suzanne: "It's more likely they did it themselves. Can't turn a profit, might as well get some insurance money."

Anthony Suzanne: "Good one ken. What did they do, leave the tank 1/4 full for the winter and then expect it to start? Duh, It wuz da guy hoo dun like us...."

Ken Lawless: "No, they had a leak through the smokestack and melting snow and rain leaked in. The problem was that the ASR went public with the accusation and they were 'positive' it was sabotage as there couldn't possibly be any other explanation. Fingers were pointed and just as they do now, they 'had a pretty good idea who's responsible.'"

Jason Pedu: "Tony do you know ken? You'd love him. Two peas in a pod."

Anthony Suzanne: "No Jason. He must be miserable."

Ken Lawless: "Absolutely..."

Jim Mcculley: "Bottom line is it's time for the state to send in BCI and start doing a real investigation with lie detectors. I would love to see it."

Anthony Suzanne: "You mean it wasn't you? You don't have better things to do than crawl around in a dirty-ass locomotive?"

Jim Mcculley: "If someone sabotaged I hope they nail them. My guess is this is just another red herring to save face for being non operational most of the summer. This thing was broken down once a week."

Jason Pedu: "Most people in this town won't get off their duff to vote on a school budget. That want us to believe someone up here had the perseverance to sabotage a train. ( place rolling eyes smilie face here )"

Erik Wood: "10 grand reward and its going to cost 50 grand to fix it. Ill rewire it for 50 grand and it will be running this weekend."

Roady Roady: "Disparate times call for drastic measures in the ASR case."

Emmett J. Hoops: "As has been said before, words have consequences. The anger your group has generated against the railroad has no parallel in North Country history. You have done what the Tea Party has done to American politics: poisoned the well."

The Adirondack Rail Trail: "Emmett. We have no anger. That is all coming from your side of the fence. Don't accuse us of being angry because we are not. Have nothing to be angry about YET. You rail fans are the angry ones. We just put out our opinions based on solid facts and you people go haywire."

Emmett J. Hoops: "Right. Rip up the rails already! We're keeping you all from an economic renaissance! (Predictions are not facts, by the way.)"

Erik Wood: "I don't think the term "haywire" should have been used, to soon"

The Adirondack Rail Trail: "Oh but they are not predictions at all and ooohhheee who is angry now? ARTA does not need to resort to sabotage to get their point across. This illegal, reprehensible act does not help us in anyway."

Jim Mcculley: "We know predictions are not facts. The ASR predicted they would pay for the rail restoration without tax dollars. They predicted they would do 50,000 riders between Lake Placid and Saranac Lake."

Emmett J. Hoops: "No, it doesn't, and I sincerely doubt anyone affiliated with ARTA would do such a thing. But you don't understand the inherent violence of your call to remove the tracks. It is a functioning railroad for which many people feel an inordinate affection, an equal number an inordinate disaffection. Removal of the rails, as an active enterprise, is in and of itself an act of aggression."

The Adirondack Rail Trail: "That is your opinion. But it is a State asset subject to change at anytime an interest by others out weighs another."

Ken Lawless: "Yes, a far more reasonable view is to insinuate that people will be raped if they use the rail trail....just like in national politics, the true "bomb throwers" are the ones whining about it."

Ken Lawless: http://adirondackdailyenterprise.com/...
Save the train - AdirondackDailyEnterprise.com | News, Sports, Jobs, Saranac Lake region —...
adirondackdailyenterprise.com
To the editor: There are more than 1,700 signatures from people all over the state on the petition listed below wanting to KEEP the train.

Anthony Suzanne: "Have a great day and God bless."

Larry Williams: "Emmett, it's really not a functioning railroad. It's more of a novelty ride, like going to the carnival for a day."

Larry Williams: "sounds like an inside job to embarrass ARTA. If you think about it, who would know where and how to do this other than someone intimately familiar with the engine. Hopefully the perp will be caught and prosecuted."

Jason Pedu: "I liked Anthony's prior comment. Honest and to the point."

All copy and paste, except for adding quotation marks and deleting time logs and "like" responses as not being needed here (and how I wish people on Facebook, here and elsewhere, would learn proper punctuation and spelling! And that includes some of my friends and relatives! Ugh!)

Anyway, I'll let you come to your own conclusions.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:14 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:41 am
Posts: 2197
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
News coverage; most interesting development is that the Federal Railroad Administration is getting involved.

http://pressrepublican.com/0100_news/x1 ... id-station

http://www.wptz.com/news/vermont-new-yo ... index.html


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:38 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:15 am
Posts: 111
Location: At large
This has become a case of bullying now. The arrogance the "anti-rail" crowd shows is amazing. I just can't believe these comments. Inside job? Sympathy for the railroad? ARTA holds no aggression? I hope New York State looks at their comments on their Facebook page when deciding the line's future. If the way they talk to people and carry on like they are in grade school is any indication of how they will handle themselves if they get their trail, the debate should be over now. Their selfish motives show in their comments.

The railroad never accused ARTA of dumping water in the locomotive. It was generally thought that it was snowmobilers but there was never a public accusation. That being said, Mr. McCully was very quick to publicly say after the incident that "the water came in through the exhaust due to negligence". How would he be even qualified to answer that? Not pointing fingers but something here sure doesn't smell right. If there is any sort of controversy in the rail yard he is always at the ready with a comment.

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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:45 am 

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:05 pm
Posts: 478
Location: MA
They are not landlocked so why not rent another locomotive?


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack RR a Sabotage Victim
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:57 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:10 pm
Posts: 581
Location: Iron City
A ten-dollar lock on the cab door would kept the miscreant from gaining access.

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