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CB&Q Coaches to AMTK Auto Train Buffet Cars
http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=36057		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Rainier Rails [ Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:42 am ]
Post subject:  CB&Q Coaches to AMTK Auto Train Buffet Cars
Okay, while I was surfing around on the Sterling Rail website and found the listing on Sterling Rail for SOU (CNO&TP) sleeper "Royal Palm", I also happened to notice a listing for an Amtrak Budd buffet car, which turned out to be one of the seven CB&Q 50 seat coaches Amtrak rebuilt in 1985 to food service cars for use on the Auto Train.

Following their usual, logical numbering method, Amtrak numbered all food service cars for the Auto Train in the #87xx-series (the four automat, or "table cars" in Amtrak parlance, were the lone acception, numbered #8600-#8603). Specifically, these seven ex-CB&Q buffet cars (or cafeteria or café cars, depending on source material--Amtrak used "buffet") were numbered #8710-#8716.

Amtrak selected the seven 50 seat coaches from two different Budd Lots: two cars from Lot #9613-112 (1952) and five cars from Lot #9613-169 (1956). Two additional coaches from these Lots (one from each) were not selected for the rebuild. As a result of the 1970 merger of GN, NP, CB&Q, and SP&S, these nine cars were intended to be renumbered as BN #5080-#5088, but only two of the cars received the BN numbers--see below. When first acquired from Burlington Northern, these cars were numbered as Amtrak #5010-#5018.

Lot #9613-112:

CB&Q #4731 "Silver Shaft" (assigned to the American Royal Zephyr)/AMTK #5010--not selected for rebuild and sold to unknown party
CB&Q #4732 "Silver Shield" (assigned to the Kansas City Zephyr)/AMTK #5011/#8710
CB&Q #4733 "Silver Spear" (assigned to the Kansas City Zephyr)/BN #5082/AMTK #5012/#8713
CB&Q #4734 "Silver Sword" (assigned to the American Royal Zephyr)/AMTK #5013/#8714

Lot #9613-169:

CB&Q #4737 "Silver Bit" (assigned to the Denver Zephyr)/AMTK #5014/#8711
CB&Q #4738 "Silver Blanket" (assigned to the Denver Zephyr)/BN #5085/AMTK #5015/#8715
CB&Q #4739 "Silver Halter" (assigned to the Denver Zephyr)/AMTK #5016/#8716
CB&Q #4740 "Silver Cinch" (assigned to general pool)/AMTK #5017--not selected for rebuild and sold to VIA Rail
CB&Q #4741 "Silver Rein" (1956, assigned to the Denver Zephyr)/AMTK #5018/#8712

With the delivery of the Bombardier-built Superliner II cars between 1993 and 1996, Amtrak was able to switch the consist of the Auto Train from Heritage Fleet to Superliners, and with this change the #87xx-series food service cars either became surplus or were reassigned to other East Coast trains still utilizing single level equipment.

#8710 was stored in 1994 and was later sold into private ownership with Amtrak registration number #800647--this car was recently for sale on Ozark Mountain Railcar.

#8711 was reconfigured to diner #8531 and remains in the active Heritage Fleet.

#8712 was stored in 1994 and was later sold to Tshiuetin Rail Transportation as TSHX #1000 for use on the QNS&L.

#8713 was wrecked in May 1994 on train #87 and was later put up for sale.

#8714 was stored in 1994 and was later sold into private ownership, with the CB&Q name "Silver Sword" restored. The "Silver Sword" was acquired by the Cincinnati Railway Company in 2010 and entered service on their Cincinnati Dinner Train the next year.

#8715 was stored in 1994, and according to the Burlington Route Historical Society website, was later acquired by Mid America Railcar Leasing.

#8716 was reconfigured to diner #8532 and remains in the active Heritage Fleet.

So, the question remains which one of these seven cars is the one currently listed on Sterling Rail? The options are somewhat limited, as Amtrak has retained two and another two are in regular use elsewhere--that leaves three candidates. The car listed, like the SOU "Royal Palm" mentioned at the top of this post, was owned by "Royal Rail"--but unlike the Southern sleeper, the CB&Q car in question receieved Royal Rail's distinctive paint job. Before today, I had notated that Royal Rail had only owned three cars, all of which had ended up in storage on the Morristown & Erie, and none of those were Budd-built. While doing some further checking, I found that Royal Rail at one time also owned a former SP/AMTK Budd-built lounge car (built for the Sunset Limited in 1950) that is now owned by Juniata Terminal in Philadelphia, painted in PRR Tuscan Red, and named "Warrior Ridge".

Can anyone here clarify which of the cars is the one formerly owned by Royal Rail??

Pictures:

1. "Silver Bit" (#8711) as #8531 at Midway, IN, in April 2013: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3469086 (Pat Huemmer photo)

2. "Silver Halter" (#8716) as #8532 at Tampa in May 2012: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3023442 (Aaron Van Amburg photo)

3. "Silver Sword" (#8714) in private ownership (before being acquired by Cincinnati RY Co.) in August 2005: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=178852 (Scott Flynn photo)

4. Unidentified car for sale on Sterling website: http://www.sterlingrail.com/images/9367_1.jpg (Sterling Rail photo)

The windows on #8531 and #8532 were reconfigured as part of their change to a diner format, but notice the same window configurations of the "Silver Sword" in private ownership and the unidentified car.

Links:

1. Cincinnati Railway Company's dinner train car roster: http://www.cincinnatirailway.com/dinnertrain/AboutOurRailcars.htm

2. The listing on the Sterling Rail website: http://www.sterlingrail.com/classifieds/classified.php?id=9367

Sources:

1. "Streamliner Cars Volume Two: The Budd Company" by W. David Randall (RPC Publications, 1981)

2. "Amtrak by the Numbers" by David C. Warner and Elbert Simon (White River Productions, 2011)

3. Burlington Route Historical Society list of lightweight cars by number: http://www.burlingtonroute.com/docs/rosters/stainlessnumber.html

4. Burlington Route Historical Society list of surviving lightweight cars: http://www.burlingtonroute.com/docs/rosters/remain_passenger.html

5. Pictures located via Jerry LaBoda's photo links website at: http://passcarphotos.info/

6. Pictures located via: http://rrpicturearchives.net/

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

A Very Merry Ninth Day of Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Author:  MRLX1020 [ Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CB&Q Coaches to AMTK Auto Train Buffet Cars
Here are a few updates that I had mentally - will research some others.

8704 1 H 84h cafeteria, HEP Auto-Train Silver Parlor - to CVSR 2007

8710 1 H 800647 - was listed on OMR, now on Sterling Rail is the Royal Rail car -the 8712 was also owned by Royal Rail before being sold to Quebec TRT.

8713 1 H 85h cafeteria, HEP Silver Spear - Scrapped 10/2010 at Gateway Rail Services

8715 1 H cafeteria, HEP Silver Blanket - moved as MRLX for Rail Adventures to Cincinnati, OH


MRLX 1020
Author:  Rainier Rails [ Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CB&Q Coaches to AMTK Auto Train Buffet Cars
Thanks, MRLX1020, for the info!
Author:  Rainier Rails [ Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CB&Q Coaches to AMTK Auto Train Buffet Cars
Does anyone happen to know the name applied to the #8710 by Royal Rail?? I can't make it out in the photo on the Sterling website, other than it is clearly not the original name of "Silver Shield".

Also, were there any additional cars owned by Royal Rail and/or Gold Coast Limited I am not aware of?? What's the history/relationship of these two operations? Different names, same operator??

Here's what I know: besides #8710, #8712, and SP #2991/AMTK #3114, Royal Rail/Gold Coast Limited also owned CB&Q #483 "Minneapolis Club", an ex-Army #895xx-series car, N&W #451/NS #10 dormitory "Hollins College" (ex-WAB "Western Sunset"), SOU (CNO&TP) 11DB sleeper "Royal Palm", and A&WP lounge sleeper observation "Charles A. Wickersham" (originally named "Royal Palace").

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

A Very Merry Ninth Day of Christmas and a Happy New Year!!
Author:  PaulWWoodring [ Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CB&Q Coaches to AMTK Auto Train Buffet Cars
#8700 also belongs to the CVSR.
Author:  Rainier Rails [ Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CB&Q Coaches to AMTK Auto Train Buffet Cars
MRLX1020 wrote:
8704 1 H 84h cafeteria, HEP Auto-Train Silver Parlor - to CVSR 2007

PaulWWoodring wrote:
#8700 also belongs to the CVSR.


Besides the seven ex-CB&Q coaches converted in 1985 to buffet cars #8710-#8716, there were twelve other food service cars rebuilt specifically for the Auto Train.

Four Cars, St. Louis Car Company, 1960 & 1964, Lots #1807 & #1830:

St. Louis Car Company built two groups of 44 seat leg rest coaches for Union Pacific in 1960 and 1964-1965.

The first group of twenty coaches were constructed in Lot #1807 as UP #5488-#5507. Of these twenty, Amtrak acquired seventeen as #4550-#4552 & #4554-#4567. (#4550-#4552 had been sold by UP to GN in 1969 as GN #1008-#1010.) Of the seventeen, fourteen were converted to Heritage Fleet (HEP) in 1979 (#4554-#4555, #4557, #4559-#4567) and in 1981 (#4550-#4551). Three were selected for conversion to Auto Train 64 seat table cars in 1983.

UP #5502/Amtrak #4562/#4614/#8602
UP #5505/Amtrak #4565/#4609/#8601
UP #5506/Amtrak #4566/#4622/#8600

#8600 was reassigned to company service in 1996 and was retired sometime before 2003. It was later acquired by North Carolina DOT and reconfigured in 2013 to 56 seat coach #400012 "Carolina Lily" for Amtrak's Piedmont.

#8601 was reassigned to the Pere Marquette in 1997. Retired in 2001, it was later sold to a private owner and is currently stored on the Morristown & Erie in Whippany, NJ.

#8602 was retired at an unknown date. No disposition information whatsoever. Does anyone have info on #8602??

The second group of fifteen coaches were constructed in Lot #1830 as UP #5528-#5542, all of which were acquired by Amtrak as #4568-#4582. All fifteen were converted to Heritage Fleet (HEP) in 1979. One was selected for conversion to an Auto Train 64 seat table car in 1984.

UP #5532/Amtrak #4572/#4610/#8603

#8603 was retired sometime before 2002 and sold to Illinois Transit Assembly. It was later acquired by North Carolina DOT and reconfigured in 2011 to 56 seat coach #400011 "Granite" for Amtrak's Piedmont.

Two Cars, Budd, 1950, Lot #9629-040:

As part of Budd Order #040 for Southern Pacific's Sunset Limited in 1950, six 40 seat club lounges were built as SP #2987-#2992. Five were acquired by Amtrak as #3310-#3314, with seating reduced to 36. Two were selected for conversion to Auto Train 32 seat buffet cars in 1983.

SP #2988/Amtrak #3310/#8701
SP #2989/Amtrak #3311/#8700

#8700 was retired sometime before 2002, when it was sold to CVSR.

#8701 was stored in 1994 and later acquired by Mid America Railcar Leasing.

Two Cars, Budd, 1951, Lot #9628-110, Plan #9526:

Of the sixteen 1DR-29 seat parlors built for PRR in 1951-1952 by Budd as #7130-#7145 (same numbers under PC), Amtrak acquired fifteen as #3630-#3637 & #3639-#3645. (PC had added galleys to all sixteen between 1967 and 1969.)

Eight were converted to 46 seat buffet lounge cars and renumbered to #3320-#3327. The first two, #3320 & #3321, were converted either in 1971 or 1973, depending on source material. The #3320 & #3321 were selected for conversion to Auto Train 32 seat buffet cars in 1983.

PRR #7139 "Henry Hudson"/PC #7139/Amtrak #3639/#3320/#8703
PRR #7143 "Molly Pitcher"/PC #7143/Amtrak #3643/#3321/#8702

#8702 was reconfigured to 40 seat standard diner #8530 in 2000 and remains in the active Heritage Fleet.

#8703 was stored in 1994 and was later acquired by the Branson Scenic Railroad as the "City of Branson" (Amtrak #800644). At a later date it was resold to Mid America Railcar Leasing as the "Keystone Grill".

One Car, Budd, 1949, Lot #9628-036:

As part of the third order of equipment for the Texas Zephyr, two 1DR-30 seat parlors were built as CB&Q #340-#341. Both cars were acquired by Amtrak as #3920-#3921, with seating increased to 52. (Both had been reconfigured in 1968 to 44 seat snack bar [dinette] coaches.) One was selected for conversion to an Auto Train 32 seat buffet car in 1984.

CB&Q #340 "Silver Parlor"/BN/Amtrak #3920/#8704

#8704 was stored in 1994 and was acquired in 2007 by CVSR as #8704 "Furnace Run". Does anyone know who owned #8704 before CVSR, or was it still in storage?

Three Cars, Budd, 1949, Lot #9624-030:

As part of the order of new equipment for Southern's Crescent and Royal Palm, eleven 44 seat diners were built as SOU #3305-#3312, CNO&TP #3869, A&WP #501, and L&N #2790. Amtrak acquired L&N #2790 and A&WP #501 in 1971 (as #8025-#8026, seating increased to 48), and SOU #3306-#3309 and CNO&TP #3869 in 1979 (as 48 seat diner lounges #8380-#8384).

CNO&TP #3869, A&WP #501, and L&N #2790 were selected for conversion to Auto Train 36 seat diners in 1985. Originally, the three cars selected were planned for conversion to diners #8525, #8529, and #8530 respectively.

CNO&TP #3869/Amtrak #8384/#8751
A&WP #501/Amtrak #8026/#8750
L&N #2790/Amtrak #8025/#8752

#8750 was stored in 1996 and was later acquired by Rail Quest America and named "Yellowstone Park". It was later leased to the Alaska RR as #323 between 2005 and 2009. It was later acquired by Mid America Railcar Leasing.

#8751 was stored in 1996 and sold in 2000 to the Alaska RR as #321. It was stored at an unknown date and sold in 2005 to Alaska Metals Recycling for scrapping.

#8752 was stored in 1996 and sold in 2000 to the Alaska RR as #322. It was stored at an unknown date and sold in 2005 to Alaska Metals Recycling for scrapping.

Sources:

1. "Streamliner Cars Volume Two: The Budd Company" by W. David Randall (RPC Publicatons, 1981)

2. "Streamliner Cars Volume Three: ACF - Other Builders" by W. David Randall (RPC Publications, 1982)

3. "Amtrak by the Numbers" by David C. Warner and Elbert Simon (White River Productions, 2011)

4. Burlington Route Historical Society lightweight passenger car roster by number: http://www.burlingtonroute.com/docs/rosters/stainlessnumber.html

5. Don Strack's Utah Rails UP passenger car roster pages: http://utahrails.net/pass/pass-index.php

6. John Combs' Alaska Railroad passenger car roster (retired cars): http://alaskarails.org/fp/passenger/passenger-roster-retired.html

7. Additional information on the SOU order lightweight cars can be found on this thread: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35551

_________________
A Very Merry Tenth Day of Christmas and a Happy New Year!!
Author:  wesp [ Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CB&Q Coaches to AMTK Auto Train Buffet Cars
Based on the info here is it likely that most of the Heritage dining cars currently in service were not built as diners, but instead are rebuilt coaches?
Author:  Rainier Rails [ Sat Jan 04, 2014 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CB&Q Coaches to AMTK Auto Train Buffet Cars
wesp wrote:
Based on the info here is it likely that most of the Heritage dining cars currently in service were not built as diners, but instead are rebuilt coaches?


Excluding the cars already mentioned, the remainder of the active Heritage Fleet diners were all originally built as diners, although seating arrangements have been modified.

In terms of heritage, all the active built-as-diners are postwar Budd examples from NP/CB&Q North Coast Limited (1958), CB&Q California Zephyr (1948), CB&Q Ak-Sar-Ben Zephyr (1952), NYC (1948), SOU Crescent (1949), and SP Sunset Limited (1950).

Here's a page which lists all the active Heritage Fleet diners (including those rebuilt from coaches and parlors): http://on-track-on-line.com/amtkrinf-diners.shtml

_________________
A Very Merry Eleventh Day of Christmas and a Happy New Year!!
Author:  Rainier Rails [ Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CB&Q Coaches to AMTK Auto Train Buffet Cars
Rainier Rails wrote:
Lot #9613-169:

CB&Q #4738 Silver Blanket (assigned to the Denver Zephyr)/BN #5085/AMTK #5015/#8715

#8715 was stored in 1994, and according to the Burlington Route Historical Society website, was later acquired by Mid America Railcar Leasing.


MRLX1020 wrote:
8715 1 H cafeteria, HEP Silver Blanket - moved as MRLX for Rail Adventures to Cincinnati, OH


Found a photo of #8715 at Texas A&M's emergency training facility, "Disaster City", seen in the background: https://www.flickr.com/photos/teex/6500337709/sizes/l (TEEX photo)
Author:  bjj51 [ Sat Oct 15, 2016 7:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CB&Q Coaches to AMTK Auto Train Buffet Cars
#8720..budd car..royal rail..amtrak conversion to buffet car..Denise marie. I am sitting in this car right now. It came up from Florida a bit over a year ago and is now part of a unique bed and breakfast set up belonging to WGN in trego wi. It is being enjoyed by many. There are photos of it on its way up here if you Google Denise marie rail car. It's companion car was the royal palm sleeper that is being fixed up for use here. The last work done on it was about 1987.Although the work was well advanced the years in Florida took tool. The 8710 has been remodeled and in use for over a year now.
Author:  ctjacks [ Sat Oct 15, 2016 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CB&Q Coaches to AMTK Auto Train Buffet Cars
What is the number of the car on the Wisconsin Great Northern?
I am eating dinner on it right now.

Chris
Author:  TrainWatcher [ Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CB&Q Coaches to AMTK Auto Train Buffet Cars
8531 with the rest of the Amtrak dining cars are officially out of service. Stored in Chicago.
Author:  Rainier Rails [ Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CB&Q Coaches to AMTK Auto Train Buffet Cars
bjj51 wrote:
#8720..budd car..royal rail..amtrak conversion to buffet car..Denise marie. I am sitting in this car right now. It came up from Florida a bit over a year ago and is now part of a unique bed and breakfast set up belonging to WGN in trego wi. It is being enjoyed by many. There are photos of it on its way up here if you Google Denise marie rail car. It's companion car was the royal palm sleeper that is being fixed up for use here. The last work done on it was about 1987.Although the work was well advanced the years in Florida took tool. The 8710 has been remodeled and in use for over a year now.
Thanks, BJJ, for the info regarding the 2 ex-Royal Rail/Gold Coast Limited cars (café car #800647 Denise Marie [exx-AMTK Auto Train 40 seat café car #8710, nee-CB&Q 50 seat chair #4732 Silver Shield] and 11 double bedroom sleeper #800347 Royal Palm [exx-Don Primi, exxx-CNO&TP #3499, nee-5 double bedroom-22 seat buffet lounge observation]) now owned by Wisconsin Great Northern!

TrainWatcher wrote:
8531 with the rest of the Amtrak dining cars are officially out of service. Stored in Chicago.
Thanks, James, for the info on #8531!

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Have a Merry Christmas!
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