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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:06 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
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Location: Philadelphia, PA
AEM-7's can run on 12 kV 25 Hz (heritage PRR and formerly NYCONN and NH) and also 12 kV 60 Hz (present day AMTK Hell Gate Line and Metro North), and 25 kV 60 Hz (AMTK East of New Haven). They were never able to run on 600 V DC (third rail in Penn Station NY area or third rail to GCT NY).

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:31 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
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Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
The relevant part of any of this discussion is not what hits the locomotive at the top of the pan/trolley pole. It's what gets fed to the traction motors, and how it gets there. And as someone who has watched a yard mechanic reprofile a wheel by jacking up a truck clamping adjustable cutters to the rail, and attaching the leads of an arc welder to the traction motor leads, I know it doesn't have to involve the usual techniques.

There exist ways and means to bypass the conventional transition from 10,000+ volt overhead to whatever DC voltage the traction motors need to turn. It's akin to disconnecting your car's engine and attaching bicycle cranks or an electric motor to the transmission, BUT IT'S POSSIBLE. Jumper cables to a diesel-electric, for all we know.

And IRM has gotten at least one electric loco operating in the past, albeit one designed for 1500v DC overhead and not 11Kv AC.

Difficult? Yes. Impossible? No. Worth it? Probably not, but I could say the same about a LOT of restoration or "new build" efforts these days, so ignore me.


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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:20 pm 
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Location: Alberta, Canada
Is 945 a DC unit or one of the conversions with AC traction motors?

If DC, could you bypass all the internal electrical equipment and run the traction motors directly off the 600v DC overhead power?

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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:51 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 563
SD70dude wrote:
Is 945 a DC unit or one of the conversions with AC traction motors?

The Trains newswire article Source: AEM-7 headed for Illinois museum says:
Quote:
No. 945 was outshopped in 1982. It was not one of the 29 AEM-7s converted to AC traction motors in 2000-2002. At 11kV 25 Hz and 25kV 60 Hz AC operating voltages, the locomotive is not compatible with the museum's 600 volt DC overhead system without rewiring.


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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:21 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8863
Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
Quote:
No. 945 was outshopped in 1982. It was not one of the 29 AEM-7s converted to AC traction motors in 2000-2002. At 11kV 25 Hz and 25kV 60 Hz AC operating voltages, the locomotive is not compatible with the museum's 600 volt DC overhead system without rewiring.

Just wanted to emphasize that.

In my discussions with the intended destination, I was told that a DC unit was requested. Whether that was for historical reasons, an eye to potential operation under DC wire, or because it was thought AC versions were still potentially saleable and thus more expensive/not going to be made available for preservation, I am not aware.


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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:34 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
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We have had at least one thread that has the DC voltage range to the motors. You'd run it just fine on 600VDC, just not at 120mph. Which I don't think is a heavy IRM concern.

You could also run it just fine with 'jumper cables' from a genset concealed in a trailing car, or from a connected locomotive, if there were a reason to do so.

I do not think there would be substantial difficulty in 'rewiring' the pans to pick up DC to supply to a voltage-to-voltage converter if necessary. The only question is if IRM wants to devote the time and expense to that project rather than 'something else' with higher perceived opportunity value.

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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:38 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:58 pm
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Location: Chicago USA
It has DC traction motors. As with the GG1 (whose AC brush commutator motors could run on DC, perhaps even better than they run on AC), if you emptied out the AEM7 to make room for trolley car switchgear and resistor grids (with cooling) you can run it. Add an MG set and trolley compressor.

I do not expect them to do this but it is technically feasible and does not require high tech voltage converters.


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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:57 am 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:34 pm
Posts: 235
filmteknik wrote:
It has DC traction motors. As with the GG1 (whose AC brush commutator motors could run on DC, perhaps even better than they run on AC), if you emptied out the AEM7 to make room for trolley car switchgear and resistor grids (with cooling) you can run it. Add an MG set and trolley compressor.

I do not expect them to do this but it is technically feasible and does not require high tech voltage converters.

I know your director Mr. Kallas has proposed restoring the NH EF-4 to operating condition (along with other fantasies that I wont go into) so I imagine the same could be done for the #945 if time permits. It would be an engineering nightmare no doubt however I'd believe your business office badly wants the publicity so it will happen at some point. Does IRM admin ever tell you guys anything?


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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:40 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 3:07 pm
Posts: 653
Doesn't the term "museum" imply a certain emphasis of preservation over adaptation?


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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:43 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
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Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
I think the proper term for what we're discussing is "Gedankenexperiment."

https://www.britannica.com/science/Gedankenexperiment

Of course, the A1 Tornado Project started the same way..............


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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:02 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:48 pm
Posts: 21
Location: St. Louis, MO
Cameron Wolk wrote:
I know your director Mr. Kallas has proposed restoring the NH EF-4 to operating condition (along with other fantasies that I wont go into) so I imagine the same could be done for the #945 if time permits. It would be an engineering nightmare no doubt however I'd believe your business office badly wants the publicity so it will happen at some point. Does IRM admin ever tell you guys anything?


Not to say that I'm necessarily any better (though I do strive to be somewhat more mature than I was in my younger days), but in the past few weeks you've been called out by at least a few people regarding interjecting yourself into the 503 project in a detrimental manner and now you're going to make an inflammatory post about IRM?

IRM is their own museum. If they make a decision, I'll live with it. I'm not involved and probably never will be. I might have an opinion on something they do. But ranting about a potential future decision that, if it has been made isn't publicized, on a locomotive that hasn't even officially been confirmed to be on the way to IRM, will only hurt the preservation community long term.


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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:36 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:34 pm
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Robbie Hanson wrote:
Cameron Wolk wrote:
I know your director Mr. Kallas has proposed restoring the NH EF-4 to operating condition (along with other fantasies that I wont go into) so I imagine the same could be done for the #945 if time permits. It would be an engineering nightmare no doubt however I'd believe your business office badly wants the publicity so it will happen at some point. Does IRM admin ever tell you guys anything?


Not to say that I'm necessarily any better (though I do strive to be somewhat more mature than I was in my younger days), but in the past few weeks you've been called out by at least a few people regarding interjecting yourself into the 503 project in a detrimental manner and now you're going to make an inflammatory post about IRM?

IRM is their own museum. If they make a decision, I'll live with it. I'm not involved and probably never will be. I might have an opinion on something they do. But ranting about a potential future decision that, if it has been made isn't publicized, on a locomotive that hasn't even officially been confirmed to be on the way to IRM, will only hurt the preservation community long term.

I have a high regard for IRM and its skilled team of professionals ranging from the administration to its volunteers. If they think they can pull something like that off Robbie I wholeheartedly believe them and take their word for it. Kallas is an experienced administrator who has many high hopes for the future, I'm not one to question that. Where did I say IRM can't handle the task, are you trying to take words out of my mouth? In the event this actually happens it would be a great publicity stunt and there's nothing wrong with that.


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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:20 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2528
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Cameron Wolk wrote:
Robbie Hanson wrote:
Cameron Wolk wrote:
I know your director Mr. Kallas has proposed restoring the NH EF-4 to operating condition (along with other fantasies that I wont go into) so I imagine the same could be done for the #945 if time permits. It would be an engineering nightmare no doubt however I'd believe your business office badly wants the publicity so it will happen at some point. Does IRM admin ever tell you guys anything?


Not to say that I'm necessarily any better (though I do strive to be somewhat more mature than I was in my younger days), but in the past few weeks you've been called out by at least a few people regarding interjecting yourself into the 503 project in a detrimental manner and now you're going to make an inflammatory post about IRM?

IRM is their own museum. If they make a decision, I'll live with it. I'm not involved and probably never will be. I might have an opinion on something they do. But ranting about a potential future decision that, if it has been made isn't publicized, on a locomotive that hasn't even officially been confirmed to be on the way to IRM, will only hurt the preservation community long term.

I have a high regard for IRM and its skilled team of professionals ranging from the administration to its volunteers. If they think they can pull something like that off Robbie I wholeheartedly believe them and take their word for it. Kallas is an experienced administrator who has many high hopes for the future, I'm not one to question that. Where did I say IRM can't handle the task, are you trying to take words out of my mouth? In the event this actually happens it would be a great publicity stunt and there's nothing wrong with that.


I'm pretty sure nobody at IRM lies awake at night, wondering what Cameron Wolk and Robbie Hanson think about IRM. I doubt there will be any special meeting called by the Board of Directors of any of the departments to address the approval, concern, or other feelings voiced by you two. I certainly do not care of your ill-informed opinions.

I'm also pretty sure that there have been no official statements from IRM about making any AC electric locomotive operational.

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Last edited by wilkinsd on Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:21 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:34 pm
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Location: Union, IL
Cameron Wolk wrote:
It would be an engineering nightmare no doubt however I'd believe your business office badly wants the publicity so it will happen at some point. Does IRM admin ever tell you guys anything?

If you ever acquire any familiarity with IRM, you will realize that the "business office" wanting "publicity" would not drive curatorial decisions such as modification or deaccession of pieces in the historic collection. And I'm not even going to guess at who exactly you think "IRM admin" is, nor what it is you think they should be telling "you guys."

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 Post subject: Re: So Who Should Preserve an Amtrak AEM-7?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:24 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Frank Hicks wrote:
Cameron Wolk wrote:
It would be an engineering nightmare no doubt however I'd believe your business office badly wants the publicity so it will happen at some point. Does IRM admin ever tell you guys anything?

If you ever acquire any familiarity with IRM, you will realize that the "business office" wanting "publicity" would not drive curatorial decisions such as modification or deaccession of pieces in the historic collection. And I'm not even going to guess at who exactly you think "IRM admin" is, nor what it is you think they should be telling "you guys."


Frank is right. IRM is governed by a Board of Directors, who set policy. They typically do not dabble in individual curatorial decisions by various departments. That is why the BOD appoints curatorial heads for each department. The place is pretty decentralized.

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