It is currently Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:28 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Big Boy Scrapping Dates?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:39 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1235
Location: Strasburg, PA
Image

I have a question for the group. I just received this print of a Big Boy that I assume is arriving at US Steel’s Geneva Steel Works in Orem, Utah (You can tell the location pretty close by the unique profile of Mt. Timpanogos in the background). I had heard of Big Boys being delivered right to the Geneva mill for scrapping, but the thing that got my attention was the date on the back of the print of 5/8/72.

Was a Big Boy (possibly #4000, #4010, or #4020?) scrapped as late as 1972? If so, what a bummer. The second bummer is that I lived about five miles away from this location and missed it, if it was in 1972.

_________________
"It was not easy to convince Allnutt. All his shop training had given him a profound prejudice against inexact work, experimental work, hit-or-miss work."
C. S. Forester

Strasburg Rail Road Mechanical Department


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Big Boy Scrapping Dates?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:01 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:12 am
Posts: 654
Location: cheyenne
Seems late to me but i forwarded the post to Jim Eherenberger and should have a reply soon.

Mike Pannell


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Big Boy Scrapping Dates?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:41 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8353
Location: Baltimore, MD
Is the date handwritten or stamped? Is there any possibility it's a processing date and not a photography date?


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Big Boy Scrapping Dates?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:19 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:44 am
Posts: 626
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Don Strack's Utahrails.net website says #4010 and #4020 (along with #4003) were sold to Luria Bros. of Pueblo, CO. in May 1963 and moved to Geneva Steel in Orem, UT. some time after that. Seems unusual that Luria would wait 9 years after that to have one or more of them scrapped, but I suppose anything's possible. I was also living in Orem or Provo in 1972.

(UP was still disposing of steam locomotives into the '70s, 4-8-4 #833 was donated to the city of Salt Lake City in 1972.)

_________________
David Wilkinson
KSL TV, Salt Lake City, UT


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Big Boy Scrapping Dates?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:58 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:12 am
Posts: 654
Location: cheyenne
Reply from Don Strack

I suspect the date is wrong. There were eight UP steam locomotives sold to Luria Brothers and Company of Pueblo, Colorado, in May 1963. These were UP 823, 825, 832, 836, 839, 4003, 4010, 4020. Dave England took three photos of them as they sat in UP's holding yard adjacent to the Geneva plant.

http://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/ ... -CFnPbKt/A


Mike Pannell


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Big Boy Scrapping Dates?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:57 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1235
Location: Strasburg, PA
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
Is the date handwritten or stamped? Is there any possibility it's a processing date and not a photography date?

The date is written in pencil.

Thanks everyone. I looks like the date on the back of the print refers to something else, perhaps when the previous owner acquired the print.

Don, the photos you linked to appear to be of the same locomotive in the same spot as in my print. The right side smoke deflector is partially up, the drivers are in the same position (allowing for 90 degrees out), and the cab hatch is raised in both yours and my photos.

_________________
"It was not easy to convince Allnutt. All his shop training had given him a profound prejudice against inexact work, experimental work, hit-or-miss work."
C. S. Forester

Strasburg Rail Road Mechanical Department


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Big Boy Scrapping Dates?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:49 am 

Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:45 pm
Posts: 64
Location: Utah
The mountains tell the story; the photo is taken at UP's yard in Provo, Utah, and the Big Boy is on its way to be scrapped at U. S. Steel's Geneva Works near Orem, about nine miles northwest of Provo, along UP's mainline to Salt Lake City. On the back is a date "5/8/72".

I suspect the date is wrong. There were eight UP steam locomotives sold to Luria Brothers and Company of Pueblo, Colorado, in May 1963. These were UP 823, 825, 832, 836, 839, 4003, 4010, 4020. Dave England took photos of one of the Big Boys as they sat in UP's holding yard adjacent to the Geneva plant, along with three of the 800s.

http://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/ ... CFnPbKt/X3

http://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/ ... ZbCTzZR/X3

http://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/ ... PHLqKgw/X3

In the same series are photos of three UP 800s in a train being moved to Geneva.

Back in 1978, during one of my research trips to Omaha, as I was viewing microfilm of UP MP&M department records and looking only for diesel locomotive information, I came across a sales order for these eight steam locomotives being sold to Luria Brothers of Pueblo, in 1963. It specifically included the locomotive numbers. At the time I did not know anything about UP's steam locomotives except that they were all black and made smoke. The 1963 date seemed to be unusual, along with them being sold to a salvage dealer. I had always thought that UP scrapped all of its own steam locomotives.

It was interesting, but not enough to hit the 'print' button on the microfilm reader. But I did write the information in my notes, especially the locomotive numbers, "UP 823, 825, 832, 836, 839, 4003, 4010, 4020 sold to Luria Bros, Pueblo, to be consigned to U.S. Steel, Geneva, Utah, May 1963." That's it; that's all I wrote.

Only later have I regretted many times not hitting that print button, since the subject of these eight UP steam locomotives being moved to Geneva has come up a lot. It really was unusual.

On page 122 of John Bush and Jim Ehernberger's "Union Pacific Steam, Big Boy Portraits", published in 1996, there is a list of the known scrap dates for UP Big Boy locomotives. The list shows that UP 4003 was scrapped on 5/31/1963, and that UP 4010 and 4020 were scrapped on 5/24/1963. This data from UP's Form 457 matches my handwritten note showing May 1963 as the date.

Don Strack
http://utahrails.net


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Big Boy Scrapping Dates?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:00 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2438
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
I would imagine that UP kept these stored somewhere from 1958 to 1963, for the traffic rush that never came.

Anybody know where these locomotives were last stored on the UP before their journey to Orem/Provo?

I looked for info in my copy of Kratville's bookon UP motive power, but it is an early edition from about 1960 or so.

_________________
--
David M. Wilkins

"They Love Him for the Enemies He Has Made!"


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Big Boy Scrapping Dates?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:52 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 3716
Location: Maine
Ron Ziel said he saw a line of them at Cheyenne, during that time period. It was while he was collecting images and data for "Twilight of Steam". It was at Cheyenne, he saw 4015 being cut up, and passed on the "honor" of making the first slice.

This raises the thought, this collection of Big Boy's must have had considerable time left on them, or at least life in the boilers. U.P. wouldn't have saved the worst for future impressment into service.

_________________
"It's only impossible until it's done." -Nelson Mandela


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Big Boy Scrapping Dates?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:40 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:27 pm
Posts: 362
Location: Milford,Mass
Hi
Here is the scrapping dates of all the Big Boys plus the preseved locomotives .


UP 4-8-8-4 — 20 locomotives (Big Boy)

Road
Number Builder Builder
Number Date
Built Date
Vacated Notes
UP 4000 (2nd) Schenectady 69571 Aug 1941 Sep 1961
UP 4001 (2nd) Schenectady 69572 Aug 1941 Nov 1961
UP 4002 Schenectady 69573 Aug 1941 Nov 1961
UP 4003 Schenectady 69574 Aug 1941 Feb 1962 1
UP 4004 Schenectady 69575 Aug 1941 Jun 1963 2
UP 4005 Schenectady 69576 Sep 1941 Jul 1962 3
UP 4006 Schenectady 69577 Sep 1941 May 1961 4
UP 4007 Schenectady 69578 Sep 1941 Aug 1961
UP 4008 Schenectady 69579 Sep 1941 Jan 1962
UP 4009 Schenectady 69580 Sep 1941 Jul 1962
UP 4010 Schenectady 69581 Sep 1941 Jul 1962 1
UP 4011 Schenectady 69582 Oct 1941 Jul 1962
UP 4012 Schenectady 69583 Oct 1941 Feb 1962 5
UP 4013 Schenectady 69584 Nov 1941 Jul 1962
UP 4014 Schenectady 69585 Nov 1941 Jun 1961 6
UP 4015 Schenectady 69586 Nov 1941 Aug 1961
UP 4016 Schenectady 69587 Nov 1941 Jan 1962
UP 4017 Schenectady 69588 Dec 1941 May 1961 7
UP 4018 Schenectady 69589 Dec 1941 Jul 1962 8
UP 4019 Schenectady 69590 Dec 1941 Jan 1962

Description:

Cabside Class: 4884-1
Drive Wheel Diameter: 68 inches
Cylinders: 23-3/4&23-23-3/4x32 inches
Maximum Tractive Effort: 135,375 pounds
Weight on Drivers: 540,000 pounds
Weight in Working Order (Engine Only): 762,000 pounds
Weight in Working Order (Engine and Tender): 1,189,500 pounds
Fuel: Coal

General Notes:

a. UP 4005 was used in a test for conversion of all 4000 class 4-8-8-4 locomotives to oil burning; testing began in December 1946 and lasted less than a year.

Notes:

1. UP 4003 and 4010 were sold to Luria Brothers and Company of Pueblo, Colorado, in May 1963; moved for scrap to Columbia-Geneva Steel Corporation, Provo, Utah.
2. UP 4004 was donated to Cheyenne, Wyoming for exhibition in Holiday Park.
3. UP 4005 was donated to The Forney Museum in Denver for exhibition.
4. UP 4006 was donated to The National Museum of Transport, Kirkwood, near St. Louis, Missouri.
5. UP 4012 was donated to The Steamtown Foundation, Bellows Falls, Vermont; moved to Steamtown in Scranton, Pennsylvania.
6. UP 4014 was donated to The Railway & Locomotive Historical Society for display at the Los Angeles County Fairgrounds in Pomona, California; moved to Pomona in January 1962; returned to Union Pacific for restoration in July 2013. (more information)
7. UP 4017 was donated to The National Railroad Museum, Green Bay, Wisconsin.
8. UP 4018 was donated to The Texas State Fairgrounds, Dallas, Texas for display.


UP 4-8-8-4 — 5 locomotives (Big Boy)

Road
Number Builder Builder
Number Date
Built Date
Vacated Notes
UP 4020 Schenectady 72777 Nov 1944 Jul 1962 1
UP 4021 Schenectady 72778 Nov 1944 Jan 1962
UP 4022 Schenectady 72779 Nov 1944 Feb 1962
UP 4023 Schenectady 72780 Nov 1944 Jul 1962 2
UP 4024 Schenectady 72781 Nov 1944 Jul 1962

Description:

Cabside Class: 4884-2
Drive Wheel Diameter: 68 inches
Cylinders: 23-3/4&23-23-3/4x32 inches
Maximum Tractive Effort: 135,375 pounds
Weight on Drivers: 545,200 pounds
Weight in Working Order (Engine Only): 772,250 pounds
Weight in Working Order (Engine and Tender): 1,208,750 pounds
Fuel: Coal

General Notes:

a. UP 4020-4024 differed from the previous 20 locomotives (UP 4000-4019) by the use of different aftercoolers, and their location away from atop the pilot deck, and the use of heavier steel due to wartime restictions. Their tenders held 25,000 gallons of water, compared to the earlier locomotives' tenders, which held 24,000 gallons.

Notes:

1. UP 4020 was sold to Luria Brothers and Company of Pueblo, Colorado, in May 1963; moved for scrap to Columbia-Geneva Steel Corporation, Provo, Utah.
2. UP 4023 was moved from storage at Cheyenne to Omaha in September 1974; moved to display site at UP's Omaha Shops in October 1974; donated to the City of Omaha upon closure of Omaha Shops and moved in April 1988 east of the shops to Kenefick Park where it is on display with Centennial 6900; the site was donated by Union Pacific to the City of Omaha for permanent exhibition; UP 4023 and UP 6900 were moved in May 2001 to make way for a new convention center, and were moved to temporary storage near the Durham Western Heritage Museum at Union Station in Omaha pending preparation of a new display site; moved on March 12, 2005 to Lauritsen Gardens on a bluff overlooking Interstate 80; the display was completed and opened to the public on December 1, 2005.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Big Boy Scrapping Dates?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:46 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:45 pm
Posts: 64
Location: Utah
Here is a direct link to the web page that was previously cut and pasted from:

http://www.utahrails.net/steam/up05-191 ... 00_4-8-8-4

Don Strack
http://www.utahrails.net/


Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


 Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Chris Webster, Google [Bot], JR May and 49 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: