It is currently Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:44 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 72 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:37 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:10 am
Posts: 2332
Each year the Amherst Railway Society announces a series of awards at its West Springfield, MA railroad hobby show. On January 25th, Project 3713 was named as the single recipient of the $10,000 2015 Founders’ Grant. Carl Packer was on hand to accept the check.

Interest in Project 3713 stretches far beyond Scranton, as this award shows. Of the five surviving steam locomotives from the Boston & Maine Railroad, only #3713 is under restoration to operation at this time. Our friends in the New England area, where #3713 spent her working career, have been very supportive of the restoration project.

We are greatly honored that the Amherst Railway Society chose Project 3713 for the Founders’ Grant.

Rob Davis
Co-Chairman
Project 3713


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:39 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:15 pm
Posts: 126
Actually there are 6. One is underwater in Portsmouth. The other 5 are preserved


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:29 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:10 am
Posts: 2332
True, whatever is left of #3666 after she was moved is still lurking down there. I was expecting someone to suggest at least some of the MW cog locos should count. I'll stick to 5 with the caveat that they are standard gauge and not submerged. ;-)


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:57 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 3746
Location: Maine
Still looking for photos of either 3666 or parts removed from her, after the dumping.

_________________
"It's only impossible until it's done." -Nelson Mandela


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:51 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:15 pm
Posts: 126
I couldn't find any, how about you guys


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:01 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 240
My recollection is that the National Park Service signed the original agreement with the Lackawanna & Wyoming Valley Chapter of the NRHS, in which the LWVRHS assumed all responsibility for the management of the operational restoration of 3713, in 1995. Are there any special events planned this year to commemorate the 20th anniversary of this project?

There have been some postings on another board re: some technical issues that they have run into. I am not a member of that board but I do have some questions about the issues mentioned.

Several years ago, I was fortunate to be on site when Gary Bensman of Diversified Rail Services was working on 3713. As he had also done some work for the Park Service during the asbestos abatement, which had given him the opportunity to get a good look at some of the locomotives, I asked him for his take on the condition of some of them. He was very gracious with his time and the conversation turned to 3713. He walked me over to where he was working and showed me the thermic siphons he had fabricated. He had one replacement laid out next to an original. I am not a boilermaker and have very little shop experience, but, to me, at least visually, the two units were identical. If there is an issue with the thermic siphons he fabricated, what could it be? If the fit is OK, could there be a metallurgical issue with the way they were formed and/or heat-treated? If so, what could cause this and what would the remedy be? The only other possibility I could think of is if there is a concern about the welds. Again, would this be something that could be fixed or would the whole part have to be scrapped?

I used to check out 3713 almost every time I went up to Scranton. One time I was looking at the firebox and noticed that the staybolt holes in the inner and outer sheet appeared as if they did not line up, especially towards the backhead. I can see, given the geometry in this area, that it might be difficult to keep these holes aligned as the sheets curve into the backhead. It may be easier with CAD, but without modern computer technology, the only way I can figure to maintain alignment in this area would be to only drill the holes in the inner sheet up to about half or three-quarters of the required diameter specified for the staybolts prior to assembly of the firebox and then drill them through once the firebox was welded up. Is this how it was done in regular shop practice or was there another way to maintain proper staybolt hole alignment between the inner and outer sheets?


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:15 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:10 am
Posts: 2332
The thread on Trainorders has little to do with #3713 and everything to do with axes to grind about unrelated projects and a desire to discredit certain people. Please don't feed the ego trolls on TO by bringing their grief to RYPN.

We're due for the status report on Project #3713 soon. When that is available, I am sure it will be posted here. There are some other pretty cool announcements related to #3713 coming. Until you hear it officially, please don't sweat Internet witch hunts and agendas.

There is great momentum and support from all the right places for getting her done, perhaps more than ever. Official updates on her come via Project #3713 and the Steamtown National Historic Site, per the partnership. Anything else is conjecture.

Rob Davis
Co-chair
Project #3713

Thoughts and opinions expressed are my own.

_________________
The long memory is the most radical idea in this country. It is the loss of that long memory which deprives our people of that connective flow of thoughts and events that clarifies our vision, not of where we're going, but where we want to go. B. Phillips


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:58 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 240
I have no axe, but I do appreciate transparency and straightforward answers to my technical inquiries. I post on RYPN and not TO because there are many experienced and technically skilled folks on this site that have the ability to answer questions relating to steam-era technology. Are you one of them, Mr. Davis? If you do have the technical skill, I'd appreciate direct answers to my technical questions. Thank you.

I was at the Scranton site a number of times where I observed at least one long bolt placed through the stay bolt holes in the firebox that could not go through completely because the holes were not aligned and some holes appeared to be marked indicating they were off. Both the inside sheet and outside sheet holes appeared to be bored out to their full diameter. That is not an "internet witch hunt" but a fact I saw with my own eyes on several occasions.

My interest was originally technical, but your somewhat non-response raises another issue. It is disingenuous to over broadly paint everyone who questions a project or voices concerns as an "ego troll" or to infer that they have some sort of hidden agenda. A large restoration like this that is publicly funded through both taxpayer dollars and through private donations to a 501(c)(3) entity, which is operating as a public trust, should be held to a high level of accountability and transparency. Perhaps some of the people asking questions are concerned donors or potential donors.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:50 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:10 am
Posts: 2332
Please re-read my comment, I did not suggest that anyone with a question was a troll. Unfortunately, as I said, the TO thread is a witch hunt and #3713 has been the vehicle for the hunt, not the target.

If you want deeper technical answers than what has been discussed in the project's mechanical updates (which have been very transparent and detailed), I'd be happy to connect you with the people who could give you a considered a response. Feel free to PM me your contact info or email project3713 at project3713 dot com

It is unlikely an unsigned post on a message board will get you what you are looking for, especially in light of the TO thread you mentioned.

Rob


Scranton Yard wrote:
I have no axe, but I do appreciate transparency and straightforward answers to my technical inquiries. I post on RYPN and not TO because there are many experienced and technically skilled folks on this site that have the ability to answer questions relating to steam-era technology. Are you one of them, Mr. Davis? If you do have the technical skill, I'd appreciate direct answers to my technical questions. Thank you.

I was at the Scranton site a number of times where I observed at least one long bolt placed through the stay bolt holes in the firebox that could not go through completely because the holes were not aligned and some holes appeared to be marked indicating they were off. Both the inside sheet and outside sheet holes appeared to be bored out to their full diameter. That is not an "internet witch hunt" but a fact I saw with my own eyes on several occasions.

My interest was originally technical, but your somewhat non-response raises another issue. It is disingenuous to over broadly paint everyone who questions a project or voices concerns as an "ego troll" or to infer that they have some sort of hidden agenda. A large restoration like this that is publicly funded through both taxpayer dollars and through private donations to a 501(c)(3) entity, which is operating as a public trust, should be held to a high level of accountability and transparency. Perhaps some of the people asking questions are concerned donors or potential donors.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:55 am 

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:24 am
Posts: 480
Location: Canada
Rob, I still think in the interest of transparency, these rumours should be either categorically denied, or confirmed as truth.
1. Is there or is there not a problem with the staybolt holes not being aligned?
2. Is there or is there not a problem with the thermic syphons?
Your future donations depend on how people perceive their money being spent, either its being spent wisely and you'll get more, or its being wasted, the project has taken a significant step backward and potential donors will shake their heads and walk away.

True, there is some misinformation presented as fact on Trainorders, but I've seen it here too. I was pleased that John Rimmach took the podium on RYPN and set the record straight on some of the rumours surrounding his work that were presented here and on Trainorders, now maybe its your turn to shed some light on your project.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:58 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1250
Location: Strasburg, PA
Scranton Yard wrote:
I can see, given the geometry in this area, that it might be difficult to keep these holes aligned as the sheets curve into the backhead. It may be easier with CAD, but without modern computer technology, the only way I can figure to maintain alignment in this area would be to only drill the holes in the inner sheet up to about half or three-quarters of the required diameter specified for the staybolts prior to assembly of the firebox and then drill them through once the firebox was welded up. Is this how it was done in regular shop practice or was there another way to maintain proper staybolt hole alignment between the inner and outer sheets?


I have no dog in any of those fights, but for a technical answer to a technical question, here are my two cents, since at one time it was possible to build a successful boiler without CAD, and the standard procedure was to drill all staybolt holes in advance, prior to the sheets being bent.

The boiler blueprints generally have the staybolt locations (especially in the corners of a given pattern) called out quite specifically. In between, rather than calling out the location of each hole, the drawings will show that the staybolts in a given row are in a straight line, with a notation over the whole row of say, “48 inches in 12 equal spaces”. That works out to 4” pitch, easy enough. What makes it complicated is when the notation says “47 inches in 12 equal spaces”. That works out to 3.917” pitch, a very odd number.

The way to lay them out is to locate the end holes, scribe a straight line between them, set your dividers to the approximate pitch, and walk them down the line to see if they agree with the total pitch between the end holes. When they don’t, adjust the dividers slightly, and repeat until they do agree with the total pitch. At that time you can scribe the location of each hole, center punch them, and move onto the next line and repeat.

What must be avoided is to set your dividers to the approximate pitch, start at one corner, and start center punching hole centers as you go, multiplying the error as you go.

This is not to say that older boilers didn’t have issues with staybolts being out of square with the sheets. There are plenty of cases of entire sheets having their holes patterns offset to their mating sheets, but generally not by an extreme amount. Off the top of my head, an error of more than ¼” would be unusual.

Also, staybolt taps come with reamers on the leading end to allow them to open up undersized holes that are somewhat out of line before they start to cut the threads, so the finished holes have full threads that are in perfect alignment with each other, even if the axis of the hole isn’t perfectly perpendicular to the sheet.


Image

_________________
"It was not easy to convince Allnutt. All his shop training had given him a profound prejudice against inexact work, experimental work, hit-or-miss work."
C. S. Forester

Strasburg Rail Road Mechanical Department


Last edited by Kelly Anderson on Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:33 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5261
Location: southeastern USA
This is interesting... I wonder if there's any technology out there now that can set up and form boiler components after holes are drilled with a high degree of accuracy through digital controls? There are a few old McCabes and a lot of heat it and beat it projects around, and I know shops that can press drum heads and such, but what about or keyhole boiler's backhead or rear tube sheet? No question about accurately cutting and holing flat plate, but it's the next step that we may not have technology for yet.... but I may just be ignorant of what's out there. A digital McCabe that uses the hole location as the basis for locating the bends or some such is what I'm thinking about.

dave

_________________
"Techies never minded eating bits and jots of their work. They were grit and grease inside and out and could turn a pile of junk into a magical kingdom."

Andrea Hairston


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:10 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1250
Location: Strasburg, PA
Dave wrote:
This is interesting... I wonder if there's any technology out there now that can set up and form boiler components after holes are drilled with a high degree of accuracy through digital controls?

Yes, at least for non-flanged sheets.

A local fab shop has a CNC press brake that they used to bend the new roof sheet for Long Island #39 after they drilled the holes on other CNC machines.

Image

Image

_________________
"It was not easy to convince Allnutt. All his shop training had given him a profound prejudice against inexact work, experimental work, hit-or-miss work."
C. S. Forester

Strasburg Rail Road Mechanical Department


Last edited by Kelly Anderson on Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:17 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2126
Location: Northern Illinois
Kelly Anderson wrote:
I have no dog in any of those fights, but for a technical answer to a technical question, here are my two cents, since at one time it was possible to build a successful boiler without CAD, and the standard procedure was to drill all staybolt holes in advance, prior to the sheets being bent.


I always get a kick out of people citing CAD as if it is magic. CAD is but a tool, no different than an engineering calculator, slide rule, or Kelly's dividers. The results the tool will yield will be no better than the skill of the man who is using the tool.

Laying out holes on a curved surface requires making a basic assumption; do I calculate the circumferential length along the inner surface of the curve, the outer surface, or it's neutral axis? Then, can those forming the sheet actually form the curve the calculations were based upon? It's not rocket science... men were building these machines long before we went to the Moon... but it does require a high degree of skill.

_________________
Dennis Storzek


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: B&M #3713 Restoration Thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:04 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:43 am
Posts: 388
Location: Dalton, Georgia
Kelly Anderson wrote:
Dave wrote:
This is interesting... I wonder if there's any technology out there now that can set up and form boiler components after holes are drilled with a high degree of accuracy through digital controls?

Yes, at least for non-flanged sheets.

A local fab shop has a CNC press brake that they used to bend the new roof sheet for Long Island #39 after they drilled the holes on other CNC machines.


Kelly,

Ich habe eine frage...

Since they used a press brake, are the radii at the top corners a true curve or many small bends that accomplish the same thing? Or, did the press brake have rounded dies to facilitate something closer to a radius than several small bends? Although the pics are great, the texture that would reveal the answer to my question isn't readily apparent. In either case, at least one engine is getting a PRR Belpaire firebox back together.

Thanks!
Michael


Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 72 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


 Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Boyd Owens, Earl Knoob, Exabot [Bot], Google [Bot], kevin kohls, Mount Royal, philip.marshall, Yahoo [Bot] and 57 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: