I have posted an ad for the availability of three Stone & Webster car bodies in the Classified Section,

Harry Nicholls

The beginning of Mini Dart, Its a shame Dallas could of had something really special on their hands.

McKinney Avenue TA is something special. Many of us are watching and learning.

dave

Well watch while you can, from what I have seen the situation has not been a good one for the past few years, the 3 car bodies for sale belong to McKinney Avenue and their sale shows that the Idea to preserve Dallas Street car history is no longer in their plan. Take a look at the condition of the current fleet of cars.

Unless you are a CEO of a financial institution or other conglomerate, the past few years have not been good for you either. We're all suffering compared to how we were doing 15 years ago. I don't fault anybody for being a victim of an economic crisis.

I also don't know who has done more or is doing more (even if it is less than it had been or had been planned in days gone by) for preserving historic streetcars in their natural habitat in Dallas than McKinney Ave TA. Changing to adapt to different conditions is not unhealthy, but smart and necessary. That's what I'm watching....to see what is working and what is not.

I'm told Phil Cobb has taken a more active role in directing the operation now. He seems to be a practical businessman as well as a visionary. What new balances he strikes to keep the line running will be worth noting.

dave

Hear, hear. Speaking from my position as a current operator for MATA, I believe that things could be better, yes. However, MATA still has relatively limited income, and only three full time shop personnel, and we are doing the best we can with the resources given to us.

I apologize for a second consecutive post, but I needed to address this one. MATA has never been an operation whose sole purpose is to preserve Dallas streetcars. Yes, it's a major goal, but remember that one of the integral members of our fleet is a Melbourne W2 car, and that MATA also has a 1909 single truck Brill from Oporto, Portugal. MATA HAS successfully saved three different classes of streetcars that were integral to Dallas' original streetcar company, which is more than most people can say.

The fact of the matter is that MATA is no longer a museum. They need cars that are ready to work on an active transit line with little to no shop time. The three S&W cars were are far from that. They all require a complete restoration, which there is not the time, money, or room for. It's unfortunate, but that is how this situation came to be.

Part of the reason for bashing the McKinney Ave. Transit Authority is that they have violated many of the "No-nos" promulgated by insiders at older trolley and railroad museums.
They cooperate with local businesses and the local community, they accept paid advertisements on the cars, the operate when people want to ride, they provide transportation in addition to an educational experience, and their track is not all on Private Right of Way, but mixes with motor vehicle traffic in public streets. That last also violates a prohibition of some transit consultants!

That was my thought, they now appear to have a complete focus on the side of transit, I am not being critical of use of advertising or the addition of air conditioning or other modern conveniences, but if the goal is transit then the physical condition of the operating equipment was deplorable as of my last visit. I understand the Added wear and tear of regular service, but the sheer amount of wood rot raised my concern to say the least among other things. Please do not make the assumption that I am condemning their efforts but from the outside looking in things do not appear that well, but I applaud every effort. But the real question I was trying to ask is what place will a second transit agency hold in Dallas as DART is soon to open their own streetcar line?
"On a side note this dose seem the end the Idea of a seeing a turtle back duo in operation in Dallas", I hope that the cars can find a decent home & avoid the torch.

What place will MATA have after DART opens their streetcar line? Oh plenty, let me tell you. DART does not, and will not for the time being, operate a route that in any way competes with MATA and their route. The Oak Cliff streetcar line isn't expected to open until 2015. It's a two mile route that connects downtown Dallas with Oak Cliff. While DART says that they have plans to eventually connect with the MATA line, I have yet to see anything concrete.

Meanwhile, we're running a line that serves a good chunk of Uptown service, and a small bit of downtown and the Arts District, and we're about to push even further in towards Downtown. The route we'll have is going to be prime territory and I predict that DART will be a bit jealous. Does this bode well for MATA, considering how DART already plays a heavy part in our funding? Well, no. Will MATA eventually become a part of DART? It's likely.

As for the wood rot, long ago, somebody gave me a quote that I will never forget. "To rebuild [rail equipment], you need approximately three times the space that [the equipment] normally occupies." This is especially true when working with anything wooden. Those frames are pretty big. MATA is currently working with very, very limited shop space. Their maintenance staff is low - three people. A big project takes much longer than it actually should because every time something goes wrong on an operating car, attention must be diverted from the big project to the priority of getting a car back in service. MATA is not perfect, but I stand by what I said earlier that considering what they have, it's pretty good. If you disagree, you are more than welcome to propose a better solution, but only after you have gone through our budget and can find room for your proposal.

MATA is making efforts to improve this situation because they recognize it as being less than perfect. As a matter of fact, the reason these three car bodies are being removed is to make room for a dedicated heavy overhaul shop. This will be an area that is dedicated as maintenance only, no worrying about moving cars in and out for regular service. Hopefully, with this and hiring on a few more maintenance personnel, MATA can begin to address some of the issues you see, such as wood rot. They aren't willfully ignoring it, they're simply setting it aside because as tight as things are, that simply isn't a priority.

We should also note that, while the company is moving away from doing full overhauls and restorations, that MATA has in no way forgotten its roots. While I can speak with no official terms, I highly doubt that these cars would be cut up for scrap. The board of directors recognizes the history behind all of these cars, particularly with the 13 window car. I can think of a couple of people involved with this company that would rather purchase land with their own money, move the cars at their own expense, and then let the cars sit in THAT location before allowing the cars to be scrapped.

For anyone still following this with a legitimate interest in the cars, allow myself, as someone who has spent many hours working on or around said cars, and one who does not want to publicly enter a debate on whether the group in charge is doing a good job or not, to allow some insight on the condition of the bodies themselves. Please note that I am not a certified structural engineer in any way, nor is this an official organization statement as I am no longer active there, and only offer this after personally dealing with the equipment. If you want to have a discussion on how the streetcar line is run in Dallas, you are welcome to PM me.

The three cars available, as mentioned, are two "10-Window" cars (183, and 189) and one "13-Window" car (323), the latter being apparently being the only one to survive to the 21st century.

189 is the car personally I consider in the best shape. Being inside a house since retirement until the early 90s, and then being kept in a Warehouse until the early 2000s, even the wood on this car is in mostly good shape. The structural steel appears to be in excellent shape, and only show minor signs of rust from the recent years outside. The wood floor in certain areas are showing signs of wear, but still hold an over 200 pounds person jumping up and down on them. Even the roof on this car, although needing new canvas, can still hold an over 200 pounds man jumping on them with ease. The sheet metal on the ends would need replacing, as would much of the wood on the corners and doors. But overall, the car is surprisingly intact.

183 is the one that is the most weathered. Being on the outside wall of house mentioned previously, it did not get the same treatment as 189. Much of the wood on this car, is badly worn if not gone. The floor has collapsed in many areas, and the steel on this car has a bit more rust on it, and note if memory serves me correctly, it is even missing an "elbow", which is the piece that extends from the main frame to help support the platform areas. Roof is also worse, as what is left is decent and close to the condition of 189, but there is at least a third of the roof missing, and those areas below are the worst of being worn out. If considering getting this car, I would suggest to get 189 as well, that way one has a pattern for the pieces missing.

323 is the one who has been at this lot before the sounds of streetcars returned to Dallas, and was originally intended to be restored before 186 was discovered to be available. For all her years out there however she seems to have fared well, as the roof is still intact, floor is still good, even the platforms are good. The window areas however are where it is bad, to the point where windows were starting to fall out of place on to the ground, and the sills around them looked to be next. The steel frame on this car may be called into question however, as for an unknown amount of time the car has been a bit corkscrewed, as on one end, and old tie that the car was sitting on for support rotted out years ago, and that end has been on the ground ever since.

Hope this may help anyone considering a future interest in these cars. My only investment in these to getting them to a good home is the many hours and $$ my Father and I have spent in trying to rehabilitate said cars, and I don't want to see that go to waste.

Again, if you have any questions, about either the cars, or my personal opinions, you may PM me here, and I will get back to you ASAP.

-Tyler Adams
Former Dallas Motorman and Volunteer

Tyler,

Thanks for re-railing the thread with a detailed report.

Wesley

An IndeGoGo campaign formed to try to save the most rare of the carbodies for a future restoration to be operated on a museum now in development:

http://igg.me/at/savetheturtleback

A modest amount can do a lot. Disclaimer: I have no financial interest in this solicitation, but I'd love to see it operating in my region in a couple years.

dave

The North Texas Historic Transportation / Texas Traction Co. is raising money to save the three Stone & Webster streetcar bodies that are in storage in Dallas TX. We have a crowd funding page here.

http://www.gofundme.com/d53si4

And our Facebook page here.

https://www.facebook.com/savetheturtlebacks

This campaign replaces the fundraiser of the Charlotte NC trolley group. Thank you for your support.

Phil Randall
NTHT/ TTCo.

No worries, we just didn't want to see them scrapped if nobody in Dallas pulled it together. best wishes for your efforts, hope you can preserve them all.

dave