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 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:30 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8401
Location: Baltimore, MD
Let me add my vote to those saying 757 deserves a place at the Railroad Museum of Pa., if only to help repeatedly reinforce the notion that it's the "Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania," NOT the "Pennsylvania Railroad Museum" as too many people seem to think it is.

On the other hand, I'd be most happy to see her traded for B&LE 643, as soon as the owner (or future owners) restores her to track and has her towed to Leaman Place Junction......


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 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:43 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 1753
If there was a trade, another possibility would be for one of the few remaining Anthracite Railroad locomotives, because those roads dominated a major industrial and extractive region of the Commonwealth (Pennsylvania is a NOT organized as a state)

Unfortunately, the CNJ and LV didn't save any of the Mikados that dominated their roster, nor were any of the Wyomings, Poconos or Challengers saved.


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 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:37 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8401
Location: Baltimore, MD
Frankly, as far as I can tell there isn't an "anthracite" loco "available" to trade.

One other option--and I know this has been brainstormed at times--would be to trade it (or, better, a PRR 2-8-0) for a true Pennsylvania short-line steamer, Huntingdon & Broad Top 38. It's just an idea, and 38 appears to be in excellent hands now, but.........


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 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:38 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:02 pm
Posts: 974
Location: Back in NE Ohio
You're forgetting about a forlorn T-Hog about 2,000 miles from home just sitting out in the open. Pennsylvania built and operated, AND the class engine.


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 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:16 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 1753
Frankly, as far as I can tell there isn't an "anthracite" loco "available" to trade.

Agreed. I think the possibility of such a trade is about as great as me winning the POWERBALL and stepping in as a White Knight with a whole pile of dead Presidents burning a hole in my pocket on behalf of BLE 643.

I don't play the powerball, but the complete impossibility of such a scenario is obviated by the fact that my boss buys POWERBALL tickets for his staff for Christmas. If the winds of good fortune happen to blow my way, I'll make an irresitable offer for the 643. Hell, I'll even buy that Baldwin Mikado in France.

Don't, however, hold your breath.


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 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:22 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:47 pm
Posts: 475
PaulWWoodring wrote:
You're forgetting about a forlorn T-Hog about 2,000 miles from home just sitting out in the open. Pennsylvania built and operated, AND the class engine.


I'd rather have it sitting out in the open out there than sitting out in the open back here. The climate out there treats it better.

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 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:10 am 

Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:10 am
Posts: 18
I’m sure that RRMPA would be a good home for the locomotive IF the museum appeared to have a desire to put forth an effort to make it into a presentable display like the other locomotives at the museum.
When one views the 757, “neglect” is the word that seems to come to mind with many observers.
Examples are; much of the sheet metal and plate has severe corrosion including holes in the cab sides, roof, and deck, tender sides, jacket including around the air compressors. It appears like there is a bee nest inside the steam dome cover made accessible of course by corrosion holes in the cover.
Is it going to be left to fall apart on its own?
Of course there are many, similar condition, static displays in parks around the country but it seems inappropriate for a museum with the status of the RRMPA.
Thus the thought of finding a home “that cares” seems to come to mind.
Adding to the dismay about the locomotives condition is the fact that it is the only locomotive there that is an example of modern “Superpower”.

Jim Kreider


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 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:46 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:10 pm
Posts: 958
Unfortunately, the RRMPA's budget has taken a severe hit, over 40%, since it is a political entity and subject to political vagaries. The net result is that staff has been slashed, with only two full-time workers remaining in the restoration shop. Those two, along with a relative handful of volunteers, are responsible for the upkeep and restoration of nearly 100 items of rolling stock. In addition, the museum's director has his priorities, which may not reflect the interests of the rest of us. If you feel so strongly about NKP 757, feel free to come to the museum and volunteer to undertake a cosmetic restoration of the engine. I'm sure you'd be welcomed with open arms!


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 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:29 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1064
Location: Youngstown, OH
B&LE 643 would be out of place in Strasburg. Pennsylvania is such a looooong state, and the railroading we do out here with Texas types and Berkshires bear little resemblance to the railroading done at the other end of the state.

If the museum were not a state run agency, perhaps they could revist the museum's mission statement to reflect the reality that the museum is by all intents and purposes the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum. There is nothing wrong with that as the PRR is so significant that a museum of this size would be required to do it justice. Or at least it could become the Eastern Pennsylvania Railroad Museum.

Since the RRMPA does not have a lot of funding to work with, and also that they are so heavily reliant on volunteers, it stands to reason that such volunteers would naturally gravitate toward projects that suit their local interests. When you visit "regional" and "national" museums, you tend to find that equipment native to the facility's geographical area tend to be in better condition than those outliers from across the state or country.

I would posit that the 755 in Conneaut better represents NKP High Speed Freight Service railroading in the northwest corner of PA than does the 757 rotting away several hundred miles away. It would be in the long term best interests of the whole rail preservation movement if a second attempt to trade 757 to the Buffalo group for the I1 4483 were made. The NKP had a huge presence in Buffalo and is more significant there, and of course the 4483 would fill a large gap at Strasburg in the PRR collection.

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 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:41 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8401
Location: Baltimore, MD
The reality:

1) It's the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. As long as you have a "budget line" that is dependent upon legislators from places as diverse as Erie, Scranton, DuBois, Bradford, Reading, etc., you are going to have to appeal to the broader statewide audience, no matter how little "Eagles/Phillies Country" and "Steelers/Pirates Country" (to borrow one description of the state divide) may interface with one another.

2) Turning it into the "Pennsylvania Railroad Museum" makes it a special-interest museum. I cannot, for the life of me, fathom a state or commonwealth getting behind a museum dedicated to one corporation, not even DuPont in Delaware or Dole in Hawaii. And once you turn it over to the Friends of the RR Museum and/or the PRRT&HS, how successful do you think they will be in staying ahead of the rust?

3) We already have a private "Museum of the PRR"--in Altoona. If we're attacking the RR Museum of Pa. for neglecting their displays, Altoona is not exactly the alternative I would choose to highlight, if you get my drift.

4) The 757 is hardly the only "neglected" piece at Strasburg. I'm getting quite tired of a couple certain people who have taken to Facebook to repeatedly condemn the Museum for the current "deplorable" condition of the DD1 electric, the PRR M1, one of the GG1s, and other pet cause locos there.

The facts remain that, by and large, places like the RR Museum of Pa., Altoona, the B&O Railroad Museum, Seashore Trolley, IRM, North Carolina and Va. transport museums, etc. have to play the cards that they were dealt, not the hands which folks wish they had been dealt. We don't have, nor are we ever likely to see, a "benevolent dictator" swoop down and trade Lackawanna 952 back to Steamtown for something else, dole out the L1 and one of the Consolidations at Strasburg to Altoona, slam a roof over every valuable exhibit piece, let folks "repatriate" a few pieces that are at Seashore, etc. Absent such a dictator, 757 will just have to "wait its turn in line."


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 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 1:25 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 3749
Location: Maine
I have my disagreements with RMPA's never run a locomotive policy, but overall, it is a facility that has answered a preservation need with glorious results. That being said, the roundhouse will solve a great number of issues which we all regularly bitch about. If I was director, possibly I would move things in the direction of my own vision. I'm not.
Both B&LE 643 and Reading 2100 would make great additions to the permanent collection of RMPA, yet both locomotive have operating potential someday, if God smiles at them. I would hate to see operational locomotives sentenced to decades of silence, although it's better than an eternity as razor blades. The I1sa is kept in good condition, but deserves a better location. NKP 757 would be my first candidate for trade-off to a concerned museum or operator. Just don't convert her half-assed to oil!

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 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:09 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8401
Location: Baltimore, MD
Richard Glueck wrote:
I have my disagreements with RMPA's never run a locomotive policy

And, of course, that's as "set in stone" as the ban on steam over Horse Shoe Curve. Right?


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 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:49 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5262
Location: southeastern USA
There's no need for them to operate steam when Strasburg is across the street......and Strasburg isn't operating a museum, but a tourist railroad. I think it's a great complementary situation for both.

dave

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 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:14 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 3749
Location: Maine
The age old question. We definitely did not save enough cash to properly conserve what was preserved! A retired Pennsy T1 would have gone for $10,000 cash (guesstimated) when it was scrapped. Wouldn't we love one today?
Time gives us better focus on our past mistakes, and only helps us to make better choices today.

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 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:58 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5262
Location: southeastern USA
Of course we saved too much, and we also saved too little. Too much generic stuff, too little in planned purposeful collections. Too much to care for, too little of anything specifically meaningful enough to make enough people care enough to care for it.

I think we all did the best we could at the time, in a world without instant communication, scattered and not collected and available information, and an overwhelming mass of opportunity. We had stuff being given away or sold for pennies, an active and vibrant economy in which we led the world, and a generation of railway management that were railroaders, not financial people and MBAs, who were proud of their industry and lived through its greatest cycle. It seemed idiotic not to take what we were given and then some......

So we did. Act first, reflect later.......reality about actual life cycle comes along, economic and cultural perceptions change, and we're still trying to hold on to the emotionally driven ways of the past. We could truly save 30% of what we have....yet we won't give up 70% to do so. The joke is on us when 90% of it naturally disappears......

I'm impressed with what we're managing to pull off despite ourselves.

dave

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Andrea Hairston


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