It is currently Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:11 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 66 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:28 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1027
Location: Youngstown, OH
There is a growing number of people interested in "ruin porn" and are attracted specifically to that equipment that you would like to see scrapped.

Scrapping currently unwanted equipment is not a good strategy as it eliminates the possibility of use in the future. There are a few pieces that I am now restoring that would no longer exist if your advice were to be followed.

_________________
Rick Rowlands
Steel Industry Preservationist, Narrow Gauge Railroader and ALCOhaulic


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:34 pm 

Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:45 pm
Posts: 115
exprail wrote:
5. Select no more than 10-12 of the best restorable pieces of freight, MW (cranes, plows,) for restoration and photo freight operations. Scrap, donate the rest.

exprail


Photo freights are not preservation.

Perhaps they preserve the sight a period freight train for a moment but the public rarely sees these trips aside from small groups of photographers. It cannot be argued that they make more than a small contribution to an organizations mission.

This mentality of "use it or dispose of it" exists in no other form of preservation, and there is a reason for that. The equivalent argument would be to dispose of an original civil war cannon just because it cannot be used by reeinactors because it can no longer be fired.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:53 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:10 am
Posts: 2329
derail wrote:
Photo freights are not preservation.


So all those freight cars that have been restored/saved for the purpose of authentic freight trains are not preserved?

Rob

_________________
The long memory is the most radical idea in this country. It is the loss of that long memory which deprives our people of that connective flow of thoughts and events that clarifies our vision, not of where we're going, but where we want to go. B. Phillips


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:59 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1027
Location: Youngstown, OH
Photo freights are an appropriate use of preserved equipment. It is akin to renting out the grand ballroom in a historic house for a private party. It puts the historic artifacts to some productive use.

_________________
Rick Rowlands
Steel Industry Preservationist, Narrow Gauge Railroader and ALCOhaulic


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:09 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5229
Location: southeastern USA
Freight is what railroading was and is about. Passengers are a not particularly profitable sideline that came along with being a common carrier. Freight cars are actually very underrepresented if anything.....

_________________
"Techies never minded eating bits and jots of their work. They were grit and grease inside and out and could turn a pile of junk into a magical kingdom."

Andrea Hairston


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:33 pm 

Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:45 pm
Posts: 115
My point is not that photo charters/photo freights are not important but that if ONLY freight equipment suitable for those trains was saved then a great deal that is of value to the mission of various groups would be lost. Preserving freight consists and preserving equipment for a railfan special are not one in the same.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:41 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5229
Location: southeastern USA
Forget about railfans. A very small subset of the population who are going to disagree what just about everything you do. Look at your mission and the general population and see how you can serve both best.

_________________
"Techies never minded eating bits and jots of their work. They were grit and grease inside and out and could turn a pile of junk into a magical kingdom."

Andrea Hairston


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:35 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8294
Location: Baltimore, MD
exprail wrote:
5. Select no more than 10-12 of the best restorable pieces of freight, MW (cranes, plows,) for restoration and photo freight operations. Scrap, donate the rest.


Besides the aforementioned fact that freight, not passengers, was and is the reason railroads existed/exist and must be represented at any operation that purports to preserve history and not just offer an attractive train ride (we thus exempt the Napa Valley Wine Train, Grand Canyon Railway, Verde Canyon, etc.)....

...... as soon as word circulates of scrapped donations, there goes your hopes of getting such donations in the future from otherwise well-meaning donors.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:45 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:37 pm
Posts: 21
Well, I figured that my first post would bring out differing opinions so i am not surprised and I welcome good conversation. Many of the points presented are positive and worthy of consideration and value. I guess i should have kept in mind that the title and purpose of this group is Railway Preservation not Railway Scrap.

From my perspectve, spending years as a railroader many on short lines and regionals along with Class 1s and in addition, being a private car(caboose) owner in a couple of museums I have seen way too much junk on many properties which would never have a chance to survive restoration much less chip away at already meager finances of railroads.
In addition, many of these "potential restorations" seeem to be out in plain view of the public rather than stored off scene and sometimes are safety hazards. With that in mind, let me also say that I don't think everything should be scrapped nor should everything be kept and restored. Everything in moderation. To better illustrate my point let me give you the following example.

Recently, I was doing some work for a well, know, railroad museum/operation which I think really has their "act" together. They are a very safe operation, with well mainted equipment and their own, track along with folks who are focused and planning way into the future. They are also low key and profitable sticking to a budget. In additon they have several new buildings for equipment display/storage so once something is restored and nicely, painted it can be kept that way by putting it back out of the weather when they finish using it.

With that in mind I was walking along with the CMO one day and asked him where the "junk" was stored? He pointed off into a stub track in the woods to just a few pieces of equipment out of view and said most of it's there but take a look at these cars, next to us. I hadn't paid much attention to what he was talking about until he pointed out some old. ice bunker, meat reefers and their condition. While their color was faded they looked okay to me until he pointed out that most of them were rusted out from the rail up and rodents were eating the insulation and interior wood sheathing . He said while the cars are full of extra locomotive/car parts and other supplies they would soon be emptied, interior burned and the rest scrapped. They didn't dare move them for fear of derailment and were too far gone for even a cosmetic restoration along with becoming a health hazard. This is what I am speaking of, not a few pieces which still have life in them?

We will all to face this sometime so maybe we need to inventory what to keep and what to dispose of?

Am I stirring the pot too deep?

exprail


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:16 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5229
Location: southeastern USA
No, you're not.... and with the specifics included your story is a very different story.

I think letting the freight cars go while protecting everything else is a great example of where they failed. Of course, we don't know what they are about - tourist railroads don't need to carry anything but passengers and historic interpretation isn't a primary mission.

Enough bandwidth has already been spent on the subject of right - sizing collections and freely sharing surplus - maybe the message about not waiting until it's too late wasn't covered adequately.

_________________
"Techies never minded eating bits and jots of their work. They were grit and grease inside and out and could turn a pile of junk into a magical kingdom."

Andrea Hairston


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:39 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:10 am
Posts: 2329
Too deep? Maybe, exprail.

For those of us who believe the essence of railroad preservation goes well beyond coaches and locos, your comment was kind of a slap in the face. The fact is, besides any of our personal devotion to the preservation of frieght cars, there are both economic and emotional reasons to keep freight stock well preserved.

Will a nicely restored boxcar make as much revenue as a coach? It depends how many butts (and what those butts pay) will be served.

Understand that for many of us, we recoil at museums
that look like model railroads: loads of locos, a few cabooses and some odd ball
cars.

The best rail collections (IRM, Strasburg, RMNE, CATS, etc) find ways to interpret (and use) frieght cars to enhance the visitor experience. Your comment seemed to take issue with that.

Rob


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:07 am 

Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:37 pm
Posts: 21
Nope, Rob that's not what I am saying.

I am all for freight equipment which is restored for safe operation, looks good, can be used for M/W (tanks for hauling water when weed spraying, extra tender; gons for hauling ties for distribution; hoppers for spreading ballast, boxes/reefers for storage of material/supplies etc.) and for earning extra revenue in photo freights. When not in use, like you say, they can be used as interperative historical displays. That's why I believe that all equipment should either generate revenue or save expense it only makes sense. At the same time I like to see a little variety in preserved equipment so it represents what operated/was seen on local railroads. You know a couple of boxes, a reefer, a tank and maybe a couple of gons/flats/hoppers based of course on what has been acquired/donated.

Where we part company is believing that all equipment should be preserved when it's well past that stage. When it becomes a hazard and nobody wants to claim it as a "restoration project" I think it's time to offer it up to other groups or say good bye to it.

BTW, I respect your efforts in restoration which you have been involved with and their positive results.

exprail


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:06 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:10 am
Posts: 2329
exprail wrote:
Nope, Rob that's not what I am saying.



Got it, sorry for misinterpreting.

Frieght cars are like shelter dogs: I want to see them all go to good homes. I know that can't happen, but it's hard to let go.

One interesting sidebar to this discussion... Lately I have come to notice that groups (both small and large) with a flair for frieght car restorations also seem to be among the most well-run. The correlation, at least from what I figure, is that it's hard to progress with freight car preservation unless you have a well-designed collections/operations policy.

Looking back at the past 24 months, all but one of my donations/financial support have been to groups/museums with healthy freight car programs (and at least half of that support has been directed specifically to freight cars). By "healthy", I mean they have smartly acquired, deaccessed or scrapped frieght equipment over the past two years. I hadn't realized that fact until pondering this thread.

Perhaps how a museum treats the lowliest among it's artifacts (like a 40' boxcar) is good measure of whether or not they have their act together overall?

Interesting... thanks for provoking the thought!

Rob


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:16 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:19 pm
Posts: 1597
Location: Pottstown,Pa.
Seems to me that Exprail is right on. A screaming real life example of where a bunch of cars/locos that are rusted way beyond the point of ever being serious candidates for restoration is the dead line at Dieseltown in Scranton.

Its been several years since I last visited so I hope that things have changed but when I was there in 2012 there was a long line of derelict equipment sitting for all to see on a long track right under the visitors entranceway from the adjacent shopping mall. What a great first impression.....welcome to Sanford & Son's junkyard !!!

Dieseltown is far from the only example of this and one would hope that someday common sense will prevail and the junk will get turned into cash or at least hidden from easy viewing??

Hope springs eternal.

Ross Rowland


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on NKP 757
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:09 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8294
Location: Baltimore, MD
Can somebody hit the record player? It's stuck again.


Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 66 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


 Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 6-18003, Bing [Bot], Exabot [Bot], Google [Bot], kbarnett, southern154, spokebender and 42 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: