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 Post subject: 1869 coach body avoids the axe and saw
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:23 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
Posts: 2041
Location: Southern California
Since 1978 the former Southern Pacific Depot and freight house has been the home of a coach that was built for the Central Pacific in 1869. It and a sister car were the first cars delivered to the CP by rail -- and even was even present at Promontory Summit on the day of the driving of the golden spike.

Attachment:
CP_12_before_move_reduced.jpg
CP_12_before_move_reduced.jpg [ 85.09 KiB | Viewed 8366 times ]


The Depot and the freight house was recently sold to become a restaurant and the car body which was inside the freight house had to go. After some frantic efforts to save the car, it was removed and is now temporarily at California State Railroad Museum. The current plans for the car are for it to go to a planned Southern Pacific Railroad History Center in Rocklin, California.

More of the story with photos can be found on Facebook at the "Ahead of the Torch" also shared to "Pre-1895 Railroads and Steam Engines."

For those who do not do even read Facebook here is part of the story about the car:
Quote:
One of the first replies was from Historian Kyle Wyatt, who retired from the California State Railroad Museum a few years ago. He had some very intriguing information about CP 12 that we simply didn’t know before he told us. It turns out CP 12 and it’s sister coach, CP 16, were the first vehicles ever to cross America by machine power! CP 16 was long-ago scrapped and lost to the ages, but CP 12 was still here, and we have builders photos of this very car sitting outside the Wason Manufacturing Company in Springfield Massachusetts in 1869. It’s story of survival for 151 years was truly remarkable.

So how was this car the first vehicle across America, from sea to shining sea? Well, it was built close enough to the completion of America’s first transcontinental railroad that Central Pacific requested the car be forwarded from Springfield to the Union Pacific Railroad in Omaha, Nebraska. The car traveled south to New York City, and was sent westward. It was barged across the Missouri River between Iowa and Nebraska because there was not a completed bridge at that time! Once onto the western bank of the river, Union Pacific loaded CP 12 and CP 16 with Union Soldiers, including an Army Band, and the cars headed toward Promontory, Utah. They arrived in the Union Pacific special train after great hardship to arrive at the ceremonies. They had to be pushed across makeshift bridges and over washouts due to the poor construction practices of the Union Pacific. When they arrived at Promontory, the two CP cars were set onto a siding and not part of either train that was used for the famous meeting of the railroads. After the ceremony, the two CP coaches were added to Leland Stanford’s train and headed west toward Sacramento. When the soldiers reached Sacramento, they were bound for San Francisco and the Presidio. They finished their journey using Central Pacific’s fleet of Delta steam boats. Perhaps the soldiers realized they were the first passengers to travel across the country by machine power, but CP 12 is alive to tell their story.

Not only is the car a witness to the driving of the golden spike, it is the oldest surviving passenger car in the State of California. It is also the second oldest surviving Central Pacific car, just one year younger than the Commissioner’s Car at the Nevada State Railroad Museum in Carson City. Unfortunately that car was so heavily rebuilt by the Virginia and Truckee Railroad, it only has a few pieces of the original framing and looks nothing like it did at the golden spike ceremony. CP 12 is much more original!

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Last edited by Brian Norden on Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 1869 coach body avoids the axe and saw
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:42 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
Posts: 2041
Location: Southern California
I have received a scan of the builder's photo of the car.

Attachment:
CP Coach 12 at Wason pp_reduced.jpg
CP Coach 12 at Wason pp_reduced.jpg [ 343.18 KiB | Viewed 8306 times ]
credit for scan from Kyle Wyatt

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 Post subject: Re: 1869 coach body avoids the axe and saw
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:43 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:54 am
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Location: Califoothills / Midwest Prairies / PNW
I have purchased Napa Valley's finest beverage in this car. I always thought that the long wooden coach at Jamestown/Railtown, and the body in Wadsworth NV, were similar early CP cars, but perhaps a couple of years younger. I think there was another early CP car that was used on the NWP interurban, preserved near Petaluma. It would be interesting to see a preserved set of cars of this era operating behind a period locomotive.

There were several other railcars (that might make good tourist RR cars), a magnetic flagman or wigwag, and a depot from the 19" gauge Calistoga Steam Railroad at the freight depot location in downtown Calistoga. Are there any changes or opportunities with these items?


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 Post subject: Re: 1869 coach body avoids the axe and saw
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:33 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
Posts: 2041
Location: Southern California
While talking with Kyle Wyatt this morning he sent me additional information.

CP coach #43 is now Sierra movie coach #2. The CP/SP rebuilt the car changing the roof to have the "bull moose" ends and a continuous belt rail.

Another rebuild is CP coach #29, later 1211, it was sold in 1912 to the Northwestern Pacific as their #123. The car body is now owned by the Northwestern Pacific Railroad Historical Society and is slowly being restored in Petaluma.
see http://www.nwprrhs.org/coach-29.html

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Last edited by Brian Norden on Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 1869 coach body avoids the axe and saw
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:29 pm 
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Location: MA
Where did they find the car builders photo? I diden't think Wason fid any builders photos untill after they were baught out by Brill.


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 Post subject: Re: 1869 coach body avoids the axe and saw
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:14 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
Posts: 2041
Location: Southern California
The scan came from Kyle Wyatt, retired historian at CSRM whose significant interest is 19the century railroad cars.

According to Kyle Wyatt the original of the scan is in the collection of the late D. L. Josyln (1886-1963). Mr. Josyln lived in Sacramento, California, and worked over the years at at the Southern Pacific shops. I believe he may have been employed in a variety of positions there. Reportedly, he bought his first camera in 1902 with his first paycheck from the SP. Over the years he not only took photos of railroads, but also of buildings in Sacramento, and copied photos.

A collection of photographs, etc. is at the Center for Sacramento History. Here is a link to a guide of the collection at the website of Online Archive of California "Guide to the David L. Joslyn papers"

This is the notation in the lower left corner of the scan. I do not know the date, etc.
Attachment:
CP Coach 12 at Wason notation.jpg
CP Coach 12 at Wason notation.jpg [ 89.19 KiB | Viewed 7974 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: 1869 coach body avoids the axe and saw
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:57 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:31 pm
Posts: 53
Out of curiosity: how much risk was there to this car?

The title implied that there was grave risk and the car was saved just in time. Was there any real risk to the car's survival or is this just hyperbole?

I would think that this was a mere request for relocation within a museum system. I would also expect that a restored 1860s car body, even without the magnificent history, would have a line of institutions waiting to acquire it followed by a line of individuals (including me). Adding its specific historical significance, this is a national treasure that belongs in a place of honor within a CA museum, at Promontory, UT or the Smithsonian.

Sincerely,

Art S.


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 Post subject: Re: 1869 coach body avoids the axe and saw
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:38 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
Posts: 2041
Location: Southern California
Not within the museum community. The Depot building has long been used for commercial purposes.

The new owner of the building was planning to develop it as a restaurant. And he wanted the car body out of the way. The general indication being that if no one took it away, he would dispose of it.

Here is more of the FB post by Scott Inmann, the current President of the Southern Pacific Historical and Technical Society:

Quote:
I do my best to keep the railroad-related posts on my personal page to a minimum, but this one is a story of remarkable ability, negotiation, and charitableness. Hope you’ll find this saga enjoyable, so buckle up.

About six weeks ago an email was sent to me and several other individuals who are involved in the preservation of artifacts relating to the Southern Pacific Railroad and, in this case, it’s predecessor company, the Central Pacific. The email tone was was a call to action, somewhat frantic, and almost unbelievable. You see, we railroad geeks knew that there was a historic passenger car inside of the former Southern Pacific Calistoga Depot in the north end of California’s Napa Valley. I had last visited the depot in March, 2019 on a trip with a friend to chase and photograph the Napa Valley Wine Train. We took photos that day, and saw a car we knew as “CP 12.” I have to admit that I only briefly looked at the historic information inside the depot that was available, later to find out it was not a complete history of the car.

The email said the owner of the depot had plans to convert the building into a restaurant. Now at first read, I was pretty shocked by this alone. Calistoga is the second oldest surviving railroad depot in all of California, only surpassed by the Santa Clara Depot. Calistoga’s station was built by Samuel Brannen in 1868 to serve the town he lived in. The depot today has been nicely preserved by its new owners, and the email suggesting the many changes that were in progress took historians by surprise.

In order to complete the conversion to a restaurant, Central Pacific Coach 12 would need to be removed from inside the depot where it had sat in preservation since 1978. The car received a very presentable cosmetic restoration in the 1970s, and was well cared for since that time. The call to action stated if nobody from another museum or organization stepped up to save the car, it would likely be broken up into pieces for removal and disposed of (scrapped)! [emphasis added] I immediately replied to the email and copied many additional historians, institutions, and museums in order to gain awareness.
The next portion of Scott's story is what I quoted in my first post.

I have heard too many stories over my 50+ years with railway preservation of items lost because the existence of a car was never shared, an offer or request was not shared because the initial contact decided not to share it forward within an organization or to other organizations

This is a success of all the right things happening.

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 Post subject: Re: 1869 coach body avoids the axe and saw
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:00 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:40 pm
Posts: 386
Location: San Francisco, CA
Folks,
All i can say is WOW! I have been to the Sierra Railroad and seen that car and to Petaluma to see the busy NWP Restoration yard.

But another 1869 Central pacific car is news indeed. I sure hope it finds a good home; at the California State Railroad Museum or a similar place that can give it indoor storage.

Ted Miles, wood car fan


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 Post subject: Re: 1869 coach body avoids the axe and saw
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:42 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
Posts: 2041
Location: Southern California
Headend Shield wrote:
I am confused. What depot, and where?
From my second extract from the FB post:
Brian Norden wrote:
Quote:
You see, we railroad geeks knew that there was a historic passenger car inside of the former Southern Pacific Calistoga Depot in the north end of California’s Napa Valley.

The former freight portion of depot had a number of small vendors around the walls and the carbody contained a merchant selling wine -- Napa Valley is a long-time wine growing area.

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 Post subject: Re: 1869 coach body avoids the axe and saw
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:27 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:31 pm
Posts: 53
Brian,

Thank you for clarifying!

Amazing and fascinating. I guess its a situation of 'never assume' and stay ever vigilant.

The same thing happens with old bridges. Just a couple of years ago, the last of the design created by the Keystone Bridge Co. (Carnegie) for long span river crossings after the civil war came within days of being blown up and scrapped. It had survived the past hundred years of obsolescence due to bureaucracy rather than historical significance.

I assumed that a restored car body from that period would be a no brainer - never assume!

Regards,

Art S.


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 Post subject: Re: 1869 coach body avoids the axe and saw
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:42 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
Posts: 2041
Location: Southern California
ArtS wrote:
Amazing and fascinating. I guess its a situation of 'never assume' and stay ever vigilant.

The same thing happens with old bridges. Just a couple of years ago, the last of the design created by the Keystone Bridge Co. (Carnegie) for long span river crossings after the civil war came within days of being blown up and scrapped. It had survived the past hundred years of obsolescence due to bureaucracy rather than historical significance.

I assumed that a restored car body from that period would be a no brainer - never assume!
A few years ago someone writing about early diesels and some not as old diesels said there were preserved diesels and not-yet-scrapped diesels. Just because it has a friendly home does not make it preserved.

Yes, stay vigilant!

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 Post subject: Re: 1869 coach body avoids the axe and saw
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:09 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:31 pm
Posts: 53
Brian,

Point taken. If you've ever watched Antiques Roadshow, you'd see the dumpster diving finds. In other words, an object's owner placed no value on it, chose not to devote any time to researching it and threw it away. The item still existed because someone pulled it out of the trash.

As you go up in size, it may be harder for the person to dispose of but its also harder to rescue. They can't simply throw it away and you're not going to put a railroad car, locomotive or bridge in your pocket or trunk and be on your way.

To me the more heartbreaking cases are the items that were lost after being in preservation. In the link above about Coach 29, I learned about B&O 20 that was heavily damaged when the roundhouse roof collapsed in Baltimore. The car wasn't restored/repaired but was given to the group restoring Coach 29. According to their own website, they salvaged what they wanted then scrapped the rest because they needed the room for parking.

So, to some degree, everything is in the 'not yet scrapped' category. Who would have thought that B&O 20, an 1868 car similar to this one, happily sitting the B&O museum's roundhouse only a few years ago is now gone.

Regards,

Art S.


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 Post subject: Re: 1869 coach body avoids the axe and saw
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:41 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
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Location: Southern California
ArtS wrote:
Point taken. If you've ever watched Antiques Roadshow, you'd see the dumpster diving finds. In other words, an object's owner placed no value on it, chose not to devote any time to researching it and threw it away. The item still existed because someone pulled it out of the trash.
About 25 years ago I was going to meetings of the Society of California Archivists. One of the professional archivists said that dumpster diving was an acceptable preservation method.

One time I stopped in at the research library of the San Diego Historical Society. Much to the surprise of the volunteer at the entrance counter, the Archivist spotted me, rushed over, and gave me a tour. They had a pallet of transfer boxes to go onto the moving shelves -- these had been given to the Historical Society for safe keeping -- these were San Diego & Arizona Eastern RR records retrieved from a dumpster. The older San Diego & Arizona records had previously been given by the SP to another institution.

On one of my trips up or down highway 395 on the east side of the Sierra Nevada mountains, I stopped in the little Mono County Museum in an old school building in Bridgeport (the county seat). The stairway to the second "half-story" was open and I wondered up and found the space finished off and even carpeted. Along were the roof slope did not allow usable space were quite a number of old county assessors record books (with cinder block bookends) dating to the the 1880s, 1890s and the 1900s. I ended up making notes about the property of the railroad between Bodie and Mono Mills. I asked about the record books; I was told that one of the members of the Museum saw the books being tossed into the dumpster behind the court house and retrieved them.

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 Post subject: Re: 1869 coach body avoids the axe and saw
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:27 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:24 am
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Location: Livermore, CA
[quote="o anderson"]
There were several other railcars (that might make good tourist RR cars), a magnetic flagman or wigwag, and a depot from the 19" gauge Calistoga Steam Railroad at the freight depot location in downtown Calistoga. Are there any changes or opportunities with these items?[/quote]

Questions have been asked about the heavyweight passenger cars at the former SP depot in Calistoga, CA.

Four of these cars are former Western Pacific cars sold by the WP to Railcar Restoration and Development Company of Tracy, CA in July of 1975. They were stored off of the WP at the Sharpe Army Depot.

They are baggage car 126 (Pressed Steel Car Company 1923/24), Coach 314 (Pullman 1923), Baggage Mail Express 201 and 202 (American Car and Foundry 1915).

They have housed various retail operations over the years at this location, and some have had doors cut into the sides for customer access.

The fifth car is a former Santa Fe heavyweight coach, which has been modfied to represent an open platform car.

An internet search for Calistoga depot will yield various images of the retail complex.

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