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 Post subject: IRM seeking donations to help preserve Mt Harvard
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 11:14 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:47 pm
Posts: 20
As reported elsewhere on RYPN, long time IRM member Roger Kramer bought Mt Harvard at the recent Mid-Continent Auction in North Freedom, saving it from being gutted and turned into a "Bed and Breakfast." Between the purchase price of the car itself, other items which belonged with the car that Mid-Continent had sold as separate lots, auctioneer surcharges, and an additional cash donation, Roger has contributed almost $38,000 to saving and preserving this car. The IRM officially accepted title to the car on May 16th. However, we need additional help.

The Mid-Continent Railway Museum is land-locked due to a washed-out bridge, so the only alternative for moving the car is by trucks, and hired crane to load it. The costs for this are estimated to be between $25,000 and $30,000. Also, due to the terms of sale, the car needs to be removed from Mid-Continent's property by August 3rd.

We are seeking donations for the transportation costs to truck the car to IRM, and to defray other costs once it arrives. Funds raised beyond these expenses will be used for the continued restoration of this car.

Once we get the Mt Harvard moved to Union, it will be one of two Milwaukee Road Passenger Cars in our collection; the other being the Lake City. The Mt Harvard's condition, other than exterior paint is quite good. Should we successfully get the car moved to Union, we intend to operate it in passenger service for the ATRRM Conference and Museum Showcase Weekend (Sept. 16th-20th.)

Individual donations in any amount the donor chooses may be made by check or money order. Write "Mt Harvard" in the "for" or "memo" line of your check or money order made payable to "Illinois Railway Museum" and mail to:

Illinois Railway Museum
7000 Olson RD
Box 427
Union, IL 60180

In addition to mailed donations, online donations through the IRM Online Store should be available next week. Once available, online donations via the IRM Online Store can be made in $25 increments up to an amount of the donor's choice. The Illinois Railway Museum is a 501(c)(3) charitable organization, all donations are tax-deductible to the fullest extent allowed by law.

Thank you in advance for your consideration and assistance. Thank you also to the Milwaukee Road Historical Association, who are also providing help.

Brian J. Patterson.


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 Post subject: Re: IRM seeking donations to help preserve Mt Harvard
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 12:15 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:20 pm
Posts: 487
Great post and great news, and congratulations to Mr. Kramer for his selfless dedication to the cause of preservation... wow! That act of generosity should be inspiration to passenger car fans to open their wallets.

Since this is a Milwaukee car, I am wondering if the MRHA will assist with funding to get it inside covered storage along with the rest of the Milwaukee collection. From the IRM website, I read that much of the Milwaukee collection will be placed inside one of the new sheds (link here) thanks to the MRHA.

Is there a chance the car might be restored to orange in maroon? That would be quite a sight, and would make this car a real stand-out in the collection.

Thank you for the post.


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 Post subject: Re: IRM seeking donations to help preserve Mt Harvard
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 12:47 am 

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:47 pm
Posts: 20
Hello, "Rock."

1. Thank you for your kind response, and thank you in advance for any donations you might be able and willing to make. I will also try to answer your two questions.

2. First, I reached out to the MRHA before posting here. They will, and ARE helping with the fundraising efforts, but more help is desperately needed! The MRHA has already posted notices on their website (http://www.mrha.com) and on their Facebook page (2168 followers) seeking donations on our behalf. They have also pledged additional support, though for various reasons, I can't yet post all of the details. However, YOUR DONATION (meaning all of you reading this who can afford to donate) are equally vital. Once the car reaches Union, it WILL be stored indoors, likely in Barn 3.

3. Second, on the paint scheme. The Mt Harvard is currently wearing a faded "Pullman Green" paint job applied by the Wabash Frisco & Pacific Association of St. Louis shortly after they acquired the car in 1961. While I am NOT the final arbiter on how the car will be repainted, and repainting the car is not the first priority after getting the car to Union (though it is very close to the top of the list,) I feel safe in stating that with the help the MRHA is providing us that repainting the Mt Harvard to its Milwaukee Road paint scheme is not only possible, but certain.

Thanks again for your kind post, and thank you all in advance for your donations to the Mt Harvard.


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 Post subject: Re: IRM seeking donations to help preserve Mt Harvard
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 12:54 am 

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 258
rock island lines wrote:
Is there a chance the car might be restored to orange in maroon? That would be quite a sight, and would make this car a real stand-out in the collection.


Brian beat me to the punch on this one, but I will add:

The decision is not made yet, and there are compelling arguments for both paint schemes. Even if it is painted in Pullman green, it is like Southern 4501; it's just paint. It can be changed. I personally would prefer the Milwaukee Road paint scheme, but my opinion matters little in the grand scheme.

I do second Brian's call for donations to help bring the Mt. Harvard home to IRM; the sooner it arrives, the sooner that it is placed under cover and any weather-caused deterioration stops.

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Restoring MILW X-5000: The Milwaukee Road's Dynamometer car

Restoration website


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 Post subject: Re: IRM seeking donations to help preserve Mt Harvard
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 6:01 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:20 pm
Posts: 487
Here is a company pic out of a book that shows both pullman green and Milwaukee orange cars in service together.
Therefore, the car would look correct next to the Lake City whether it's painted green or orange.

The Mt Harvard is a great save for the museum. Good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: IRM seeking donations to help preserve Mt Harvard
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 4:56 am 

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:47 pm
Posts: 20
Hello again, Rock Island Lines.

1. Thanks again for your interest in Mt Harvard. Could you post a citation for the picture? I would be interested in reading a copy of the book from which you got the picture.

2. Our FIRST priority at IRM is to get Mt Harvard safely and quickly moved to Union. Our second priority will be to perform the COT&S, deep-clean the interior, and other items as needed to place the car in service for the ATRRM Convention and Museum Showcase Weekend in September. Doing an exterior repaint on Mt Harvard is not likely this year, due to the expense of bringing Mt Harvard to Union.

3. As for how the Mt Harvard was painted while in revenue service with the Milwaukee Road, that is a good question. Web-published research by Mid-Continent states that Mt Harvard "...shed its Pullman Green paint for Milwaukee orange and maroon." However, they don't give an exact date for the transfer of possession of Mt Harvard. This is narrowed somewhat as they state that Mt Harvard operated on the Columbian as a set-out sleeper between Seattle and Spokane prior to WWII. They also incorrectly identify the transfer as a sale, rather than a lease. Other sources indicate that the Columbian did NOT run as a single named contiguous corss-country train during the period of 1930-1947, though the Columbian name may have been used for the Seattle-Spokane segment where Mt Harvard was identified as being used.

4. Thomas C. Madden's Pullman Database, which is a transcription of Pullman Car Construction Records (CCRs) indicate that the car was LEASED to MILW rather than sold. The car would have received a full exterior repaint as part of its conversion to a Solarium which was completed on January 2nd, 1940. But, was the car immediately leased the the MILW? Or, did it re-enter pool service first and go back to the Southern Pacific? If the former, a MILW paint scheme would have made sense. If the later, not so much. The CCR indicates that the last paint job applied by Pullman was "MILW Yellow" as per Pullman drawing CE-D-3534, on May 18th, 1951. This would NOT be the "UP-Clone" paint job, since the UP didn't change over from the CNW for Chicago Service until 1956. Madden's CCR transcription doesn't state if the car had a non-Pullman Green paint job prior to 1951. However, his information is only as good as the readability and accuracy of the Pullman CCR itself, as he clearly states on his website. Madden further states that in some cases, entries were struck with a single line, other times they were obliterated completely, and still others had paper glued over the old information showing those portions of the "new" information Pullman felt was important to preserve. Without physically examining the CCR itself, I can't even guess what was or was not on it beyond Madden's transcription.

5. Further research indicates that the car likely left active Milwaukee Road service shortly after April 1958, when the Milwaukee Road ended passenger service to Kansas City. Mid-Continent states that the car was used on the Arrow from Chicago to Savanna, IL, where it was handed off to the Milwaukee-Kansas City Southwest Limited. The car would likely have remained in service to the end of the Southwest Limited even after sleeper service was dropped, since the open sections could be sold as coach seats, and the buffet could partially make up for the annulment of diner car service on that train. Since Pullman had no need of the car once MILW terminated the lease, there was no reason for Pullman to repaint the car.

6. CCRs were updated by Pullman as long as they retained ultimate ownership of the car so documented. Once ownership fully transferred by whatever means, the date of sale and party to whom sold were noted on the CCR, and the CCR was "closed." Had Pullman actually sold the car to the Milwaukee Road, the card would have been closed out some time prior to 1942. However, the CCR for Mount Harvard indicates that the car was sold on August 18th, 1961 to Midwest Steel. Thus, the car was leased to MILW, rather than sold. And, the actual donor who gave the Mt Harvard to the Wabash Frisco & Pacific Association of St. Louis would either have been Midwest Steel (possible but not likely) or then-members of the WF&P. The current Pullman Green paint job was applied by WF&P some time after 1961. Dick Goddard's 1971 picture of the Mt Harvard showing it en-route to Fond du Lac shows the car with a faded and weathered Pullman Green paint job with "WF&P" in small type at the ends of the letterboards. All letterboard markings were painted over at some point by Mid-Continent. The paint work Mid-Continent performed on Mt Harvard was never a complete paint job. Rather, it was a "patch" job to keep the WF&P paint in service to protect the car, rather than a full-repaint.

7. So, we know what the car was painted like from 1951 to 1961. But, we don't currently have any documentary evidence to show how it was painted between the start of the MILW Lease and 1951. We also don't have an exact starting and ending date for that lease, for the reasons stated in paragraph 3 above.

Thanks.

Brian J. Patterson.


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 Post subject: Re: IRM seeking donations to help preserve Mt Harvard
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 1:14 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2815
Location: Northern Illinois
Has anyone contacted Mr. Madden , or any of the other folks that do research at the Newberry directly? I seem to recall that the Car Construction Records do not show changes of assignment, but for a while during the thirties Pullman maintained a separate "Ledger of Air Conditioned Cars" that did. The purpose of this ledger was roads were paying extra to have air conditioned cars assigned, and this ledger helped ensure they received air conditioned cars as replacements when cars were rotated out for shopping, etc. The ledger fell into disuse sometime during the war years, but at least the initial assignment after the 1940 rebuilding should be noted there. I know Tom has done some work with the a/c ledger to clear up issues with the CCR database, and he may have more info. He was able to send me a complete list of cars assigned to the Soo Line and CPR for service on the summertime Mountaineer between the initial air conditioning of the cars and WWII.

Your description of the arrangement with the Milwaukee Road as a lease is confusing; it implies the cars were owned by Pullman but operated by the MILW... is this what you intend? The more normal arrangement was for the road to contract with Pullman for service; Pullman then assigned cars staffed with Pullman crews to provide it. In this arrangement car assignments could occasionally change as Pullman reshuffled its fleet; the contracting road had no claim to a particular car, only that the cars assigned have a/c and special paint if that was part of the contract.

This arrangement changed somewhat at the end of 1948 with the court-ordered break-up of the Pullman Company. The cars were sold to the participating railroads, who most generally leased the cars back to Pullman and the service contracts continued as before. To keep from having mass confusion as each road tried to buy the best cars, the court approved format of the sale was that each road was offered only the cars which had been assigned to it on January 1, 1945. Since the CCR shows the car was not sold to the MILW, it calls into question if it was even assigned there in 1945. The other possibility is the car was offered for sale to the MILW and refused, which was not an uncommon occurrence. Those cars the railroads declined to buy continued on in the Pullman pool until Pullman had no further need for them. I believe there is considerable information at the Newberry about which cars were offered to which roads, and which specific cars were declined.

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 Post subject: Re: IRM seeking donations to help preserve Mt Harvard
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 2:39 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:41 pm
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Location: Minneapolis, MN
It seems to me that all this speculation will not be resolved until an archaeological expedition into the various layers of paint actually on the car takes place. That should certainly tell the tale, exactly.


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 Post subject: Re: IRM seeking donations to help preserve Mt Harvard
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 4:08 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:47 pm
Posts: 20
Hello, Dennis Storzek.

1. Thank you for your interest in Mt Harvard. Hopefully we can count on your financial support in the weeks and months to come.

2. I have only started researching the car's history myself in the past week, as part of my efforts to help raise funds to move Mt Harvard to Union. I have not contacted Tom Madden directly yet. I have used two main references so far. The first is the web page for the Mt Harvard on the Mid-Continent Railway Museum's website (http://www.midcontinent.org/equipment-r ... mt-harvard.) They, in turn cite "A Century of Pullman Cars” Alphabetical List, by Ralph Barger, which I currently don't have. The second reference I've used is Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR Database. Thank you for suggesting that I contact him directly. While I intend to visit the Newberry when time and other circumstances allow, he may already have the information "at-hand." In any case, I am continuing to research Mt Harvard to provide as accurate a picture as I am able to of the car's history, particularly its Milwaukee Road service.

3. Mt Harvard's Milwaukee Road career was unusual in several regards. First, the Milwaukee Road was famous for NOT using Pullman OBS or booking facilities, and for building most of their passenger cars themselves. While they did buy some cars from Pullman, they always operated them themselves. Our other Milwaukee Road passenger car, Lake City, was built by Pullman and delivered new to the Milwaukee Road in 1915. Unlike most other Pullman cars that were leased to the Milwaukee Road, the Mt Harvard was kept "on the books" by Pullman until scrapping rather than being sold on a "ltp" basis.

4. The references I cited in paragraph 2 above both confirm SOME MILW service. Otherwise, why would Pullman have painted Mt Harvard in Milwaukee Road colors? Madden's CCR Database also states (indirectly) that Pullman retained Mt Harvard's ownership, since otherwise they wouldn't have been able to sell the car for scrap to Midwest Steel. MCRM's web page does not claim any MILW service prior to 1940, when the Solarium conversion was finished. The car was air-conditioned in 1935, and was assigned to the Southern Pacific between then and the 1939-1940 Solarium conversion.

5. As to why the Milwaukee Road never purchased the car, I can only guess that the Milwaukee Road had use for the car but didn't want to buy it, and that Pullman didn't want the car back. Those details are likely "in the stacks" at the Newberry, and may also be at IRM's Pullman Library. While I intend to find them, I haven't looked yet.

6. The subject of Milwaukee Road comes up for two related reasons; did Mt Harvard run on the Milwaukee Road, and what paint scheme should IRM use when we repaint the car. Based on the references I have, I CAN state with proof that the Mt Harvard operated on the Milwaukee Road in Milwaukee Road Livery. I can NOT prove OR disprove whether the Mt Harvard ran in "pool service" after its Solarium conversion but prior to starting Milwaukee Road Service. Thanks again for your interest, and I hope IRM can count on your support in bringing Mt Harvard "home" to Union.

Thanks.

Brian J. Patterson.


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 Post subject: Re: IRM seeking donations to help preserve Mt Harvard
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 4:34 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:44 pm
Posts: 120
Regarding Pullman cars and the Milwaukee Road:

I'll double check my sources this evening but from my recollection, The Milwaukee (along with the Santa Fe) was a big user of steam powered air conditioners on it's heavyweight fleet, and its probable they would have requested equipment so equipped from Pullman when requiring a swap out for maintenance. Pullman Cars assigned long term to Milwaukee trains seem to have been painted into the Milwaukee's scheme almost immediately, as the orange and maroon was a huge part of the Milwaukee's brand, and pictures like the one above of a standard green Pullman probably is either a temporary assignment to cover maintenance or an added car reflecting heavy temporary demand. Another unique aspect of the Milwaukee's relationship with Pullman is that apparently, the Milwaukee insisted on roller bearing equipped trucks under all cars assigned to it by Pullman, and the road actually maintained ownership of the trucks; When a car was reassigned to a different, non-Milwaukee service, it left its trucks behind.

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Former Operations Manager, North Shore Scenic Railroad


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 Post subject: Re: IRM seeking donations to help preserve Mt Harvard
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 5:45 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:47 pm
Posts: 20
Hello, The Fireman and Denis Storzek.

1. Dennis, I sent an email to Tom as you suggested. Hopefully he has the information close at hand.

2. Thank you, Fireman, for your interest in Mt Harvard. I hope that we can count on your financial support in the weeks and months to come.

3. There are 8 plan 3521 variants (2 'L' and 6 'A') listed in Tom Madden's CCR database with MILW paint scheme applied, including Mt Harvard and its running mate on the Arrow Mt Cowen. Out of the eight, only Mt Harvard and Mt Cowen were NOT equipped with steam-ejector A/C. Both Mt Cowen and Mt Harvard were equipped with PMB systems.

4. I have no picture on hand of Mt Harvard during its Milwaukee Road Service. All the pictures that are "online" show the car with friction bearings, and the original type 242 trucks as it is equipped today.

5. For what it's worth, only one of the eight listed cars, Monte Cristo was NOT sold for scrap by Pullman. It was sold to the CGW in 1954. The other seven were scrapped by Pullman between 1956 and 1966, with 5 being scrapped in 1961. Ironically, Monte Cristo appears to have been scrapped, where Mt Harvard still survives.

Thanks.

Brian J. Patterson.


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 Post subject: Re: IRM seeking donations to help preserve Mt Harvard
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 11:07 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:20 pm
Posts: 487
B.Patterson wrote:
Hello again, Rock Island Lines.

1. Thanks again for your interest in Mt Harvard. Could you post a citation for the picture? I would be interested in reading a copy of the book from which you got the picture.

The picture is in Jim Scribbins' most recent book, titled "The Milwaukee Road." In the caption he refers to that green sleeper on The Olympian as "an extra Pullman car". I'm sure he's just making an educated guess, though. Hopefully your research turns up some solid information.


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 Post subject: Re: IRM seeking donations to help preserve Mt Harvard
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 11:20 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:47 pm
Posts: 20
rock island lines wrote:
B.Patterson wrote:
Hello again, Rock Island Lines.

1. Thanks again for your interest in Mt Harvard. Could you post a citation for the picture? I would be interested in reading a copy of the book from which you got the picture.

The picture is in Jim Scribbins' most recent book, titled "The Milwaukee Road." In the caption he refers to that green sleeper on The Olympian as "an extra Pullman car". I'm sure he's just making an educated guess, though. Hopefully your research turns up some solid information.


The picture looks like a company picnic or fan-trip. None of the heavyweights have letterboard info, names, or numbers. And while the open car is nice, I'm not sure it was ever used for SCHEDULED revenue service. Even in the pre-lawsuit days, you didn't let passengers roam freely between that "outdoor" car and the rest of the train.

Thanks.

Brian J. Patterson.


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 Post subject: Re: IRM seeking donations to help preserve Mt Harvard
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 1:25 am 

Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:46 pm
Posts: 72
Drifting from the topic of the Mt. Harvard...

The MILW had several open air observation cars like the one in the photo that were used regularly on the Olympian between Harlowton, MT and either Avery or St. Maries, ID. They also used them between Tacoma, WA and Othello, WA when the train went over the Cascades in the daylight, but discontinued the practice when the schedule was changed and the train started to run through there at night in both directions. The open air cars were rebuilt from older passenger cars in 1921.

Back to the Mt. Harvard...

There is a consist floating out there for a westbound Columbian that may be from one of Wayner's passenger train consist books:

Train 17, arriving Seattle on October 5, 1951.

CMStP&P E5 EP-2 electric locomotive
CMStP&P 1228 Mail and Express Car
CMStP&P 832 Baggage-Express car
CMStP&P 1116 Baggage-Express car
CMStP&P 436 Coach
CMStP&P 441 Coach
CMStP&P car Red Wing 14 Section Sleeper
Kilbourn 6 Sections, 6 Double Bedrooms
CMStP&P 104 Dining car
Mt. Harvard 10 Sections, Lounge
CMStP&P 5713 Tourist car (14 sections)
CMStP&P car Wauwatosa 12 Sections, 1 Drawing Room
CMStP&P car Watertown 12 Sections, 1 Drawing Room
CMStP&P car Avalon 14 Sections

Paul

Paul Krueger
Seattle, WA


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 Post subject: Re: IRM seeking donations to help preserve Mt Harvard
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 1:58 am 

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:47 pm
Posts: 20
Hello, Paul Krueger.

1. Thanks for your interest in the Mt Harvard. I hope that we can count on your assistance in getting the car moved to Union as well.

2. Thanks also for the info on the open-air cars. The "loss" of letterboard info can also easily be explained by relatively low scan resolution of a picture in a book. And, if a "leased from Pullman" broke down under circumstances where MILW HAD to have SOMETHING, that would explain the green car in the consist, as would taking over use of the car on the west cost and moving it in-service back to Chicago for painting.

3. As per Tom Madden's Pullman CCR Database, Mt Harvard was painted in CE-D-3534 (MILW livery) on May 18, 1951. This would definitely confirm post-WWII service on the Columbian, when it was a named route opposite the Olympia Hiawatha.

4. I received a email reply from Tom Madden earlier this evening. He will be letting me know what he's found out about Mt Harvard's history, including the history with the Milwaukee Road.

Thanks.

Brian J. Patterson.


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