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 Post subject: Re: Retained Locomotive Steam Generators
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:03 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:25 pm
Posts: 248
FRA regs for steam generators are in part 229. Here a few of the regs (not all);

(begin quote of FRA regs)

§ 229.103 Safe working pressure; factor of safety.
The safe working pressure for each steam generator shall be fixed by the chief mechanical officer of the carrier. The minimum factor of safety shall be four. The fixed safe working pressure shall be indicated on FRA Form F 6180-49A.

§ 229.105 Steam generator number.
An identification number shall be marked on the steam generator’s separator and that number entered on FRA Form F 6180-49A.

§ 229.107 Pressure gauge.
(a) Each steam generator shall have an illuminated steam gauge that correctly indicates
the pressure. The steam pressure gauge shall be graduated to not less than one and one half times the allowed working pressure of the steam generator.
(b) Each steam pressure gauge on a steam generator shall have a siphon that prevents
steam from entering the gauge. The pipe connection shall directly enter the separator and shall be steam-tight between the separator and the gauge.

§ 229.109 Safety valves.
Every steam generator shall be equipped with at least two safety valves that have a combined capacity to prevent an accumulation of pressure of more than five pounds per square inch above the allowed working pressure. The safety valves shall be independently connected to the separator and located as closely to the separator as possible without discharging inside of the generator compartment. The ends of the safety valve discharge lines shall be located or protected so that discharged steam does not create a hazard.

§ 229.111 Water-flow indicator.
(a) Steam generators shall be equipped with an illuminated visual return water-flow
indicator.
(b) Steam generators shall be equipped with an operable test valve or other means of
determining whether the steam generator is filled with water. The fill test valve may not
discharge steam or hot water into the steam generator compartment.

§ 229.113 Warning notice.
Whenever any steam generator has been shut down because of defects, a distinctive warning notice giving reasons for the shut-down shall be conspicuously attached near the steam generator starting controls until the necessary repairs have been made. The locomotive in which the steam generator displaying a warning notice is located may continue in service until the next periodic inspection.

Guidance
The steam generator regulations are not included in their entirety because there are none in service at the present time. The inspector should refer to the current part 229 if a steam generator is found in service in his/her district.

(end quote of FRA regs)

It also depends if you are subject to FRA regulations at your operation. When you get a steam generator operational you will probably know more than the FRA guy/gal and will have to explain it to them.

A stream generator is basically a very long thin boiler (the tube) wrapped in a spiral around a firebox. It is subject to bursting and instant generation of steam like a regular boiler explosion. Since it has a smaller (but not insignificant) volume of water that can become steam the effects of a rupture are more localized but should still be considered potentially fatal to those close by.

Cheers, Kevin


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 Post subject: Re: Retained Locomotive Steam Generators
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:08 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:25 pm
Posts: 248
Oh, I forgot, I got the previous quote from this source;

https://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/Details/L01185

On document page 8-49 (PDF file page 182)

Looks like you need to fill out the old "FRA Form F 6180-49A", everybody has a dusty old stack of those just taking up space in the engine house office right ???

Cheers, Kevin


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 Post subject: Re: Retained Locomotive Steam Generators
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:36 am 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 907
Quote:
"Looks like you need to fill out the old "FRA Form F 6180-49A", everybody has a dusty old stack of those just taking up space in the engine house office, right???"


And on the off chance you do not, you can download or print one:

https://safetydata.fra.dot.gov/OfficeofSafety/publicsite/forms.aspx

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 Post subject: Re: Retained Locomotive Steam Generators
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:15 pm 

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:49 am
Posts: 233
Location: Cambridgeshire UK
Hi Guys, I believe former Washington Terminal RS1 number 57,now on the East Penn Railway, still has a complete Vapor-Clarkson steam generator in her short hood. Have fun - Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Retained Locomotive Steam Generators
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:54 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:34 pm
Posts: 166
NYCRRson wrote:
FRA regs for steam generators are in part 229. Here a few of the regs (not all);

(begin quote of FRA regs)

§ 229.103 Safe working pressure; factor of safety.
The safe working pressure for each steam generator shall be fixed by the chief mechanical officer of the carrier. The minimum factor of safety shall be four. The fixed safe working pressure shall be indicated on FRA Form F 6180-49A.

§ 229.105 Steam generator number.
An identification number shall be marked on the steam generator’s separator and that number entered on FRA Form F 6180-49A.

§ 229.107 Pressure gauge.
(a) Each steam generator shall have an illuminated steam gauge that correctly indicates
the pressure. The steam pressure gauge shall be graduated to not less than one and one half times the allowed working pressure of the steam generator.
(b) Each steam pressure gauge on a steam generator shall have a siphon that prevents
steam from entering the gauge. The pipe connection shall directly enter the separator and shall be steam-tight between the separator and the gauge.

§ 229.109 Safety valves.
Every steam generator shall be equipped with at least two safety valves that have a combined capacity to prevent an accumulation of pressure of more than five pounds per square inch above the allowed working pressure. The safety valves shall be independently connected to the separator and located as closely to the separator as possible without discharging inside of the generator compartment. The ends of the safety valve discharge lines shall be located or protected so that discharged steam does not create a hazard.

§ 229.111 Water-flow indicator.
(a) Steam generators shall be equipped with an illuminated visual return water-flow
indicator.
(b) Steam generators shall be equipped with an operable test valve or other means of
determining whether the steam generator is filled with water. The fill test valve may not
discharge steam or hot water into the steam generator compartment.

§ 229.113 Warning notice.
Whenever any steam generator has been shut down because of defects, a distinctive warning notice giving reasons for the shut-down shall be conspicuously attached near the steam generator starting controls until the necessary repairs have been made. The locomotive in which the steam generator displaying a warning notice is located may continue in service until the next periodic inspection.

Guidance
The steam generator regulations are not included in their entirety because there are none in service at the present time. The inspector should refer to the current part 229 if a steam generator is found in service in his/her district.

(end quote of FRA regs)

It also depends if you are subject to FRA regulations at your operation. When you get a steam generator operational you will probably know more than the FRA guy/gal and will have to explain it to them.

A stream generator is basically a very long thin boiler (the tube) wrapped in a spiral around a firebox. It is subject to bursting and instant generation of steam like a regular boiler explosion. Since it has a smaller (but not insignificant) volume of water that can become steam the effects of a rupture are more localized but should still be considered potentially fatal to those close by.

Cheers, Kevin


Thanks Kevin for that good info I don't know who else could've known those facts. I will say that the boiler in 1556 is coming from another PRR RS-3 (hint hint) but thats all I can say at this moment. If anyone were interested in perhaps sharing some photos of their own steam gens please feel try to post some pictures, I think we'd all have some interest in taking a look

Cameron


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 Post subject: Re: Retained Locomotive Steam Generators
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:43 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:34 pm
Posts: 166
Here's an revised and updated list of locomotives retaining steam gennys,

NH 529 RS-3
PRR 8912 RS-3
B&M 1508 RS-3
NH 2059 FL-9
MEC 573 GP-7
Kodak 9 RS-1
LIRR 213 C-420
NYC 4083 E-8
CNJ 1554 RS-3
GTW 1951 RS-1
NKP 190 PA-4
WAB 1009 E-8
SOU 6900 E-8
SOU 6901 E-8
A&R 205 GP-7
WATC 57 RS-1
WATC 59 RS-1
All existing PRR GG1s
CNW 1689 RSD-5
NH 0670 RS-1
WATC 50 RS-1
NYC 4080 E-8
NYC 4068 E-8
NYC 4085 E-8
CP 8554 H16-44
CP 4104 CPA-16-44
CP 4065 CPA-16-44
NYC 8524 RS-3
NYC 8255 RS-3
D&H 4129 RS-3 ?
SAL 1633 RS-3 ?
PRR 5901 E-7
PRR 3937-3937 DD1
RDG 901 FP7
B&O 51 EA
ACL 501 E-6
PRR 8479 RS-3
NYC 8280 RS-3
LIRR 211 C420
D&H 19 PA-4
D&H 17 PA-4
D&H 16 PA-4
MLW E70 EF-4
SP 5623 GP-9
SP 6051 E-9
CB&Q 9911A E-5


Last edited by Cameron Wolk on Sat Sep 26, 2015 8:02 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Retained Locomotive Steam Generators
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:47 pm 

Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 8:27 pm
Posts: 6
Location: Springfield, PA
Hi Cameron,

Just a small update to your comprehensive "steam generators retained" list.

Reading FP-7 900, currently stored inoperable at the Reading Railroad Heritage Museum in Hamburg, PA, still retains its original steam generator.

Reading FP-7's 902 and 903, currently residing at Steamtown in Scranton, PA, and restored for service by the Lancaster and Philadelphia Chapters NRHS respectively, had both their steam generators removed approx. 1990 or so during their restorations.

Dave McGuire
Mechanical Committee Chair
Philadelphia Chapter NRHS


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 Post subject: Re: Retained Locomotive Steam Generators
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:53 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:58 pm
Posts: 1197
Location: Chicago USA
Did GG-1's keep their firetube boilers or did they ever get updated with the diesel-style steam generators?


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 Post subject: Re: Retained Locomotive Steam Generators
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:47 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:28 am
Posts: 64
Location: Pinole, Ca.
[quote="Cameron Wolk"]Here's an revised and updated list of locomotives retaining steam gennys,


Cameron

As I reported on September 7, Southern Pacific GP9 5623 has a totally intact steam generator and as a matter of fact, so does the SP E9 6051 at CSRM.

Howard


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 Post subject: Re: Retained Locomotive Steam Generators
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:45 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:34 pm
Posts: 166
Howard Wise wrote:
Cameron Wolk wrote:
Here's an revised and updated list of locomotives retaining steam gennys,


Cameron

As I reported on September 7, Southern Pacific GP9 5623 has a totally intact steam generator and as a matter of fact, so does the SP E9 6051 at CSRM.

Howard


Sorry about that Howard I will promptly add that info to the list along with Dave's info no worries. May I ask if you have a picture of the steam genny that I could potentially view, give me a PM if possible,

Cameron


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 Post subject: Re: Retained Locomotive Steam Generators
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:55 am 

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:48 am
Posts: 30
I see the ex-LIRR 213 is indicated as having its steam generator.

LIRR 213 was one of the C-420s leased by LIRR and returned to the lessor in (or about) 1977, and stored on the M&E RR.

I was involved in the purchase and operation of four of these C-420s for the Virginia & Maryland RR, including 213, which was later resold through a broker, in 1978 or early 1979. So far as I can recall, all these units had their steam generators removed by LIRR.

Perhaps this could be "double checked".


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 Post subject: Re: Retained Locomotive Steam Generators
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:41 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:34 pm
Posts: 166
R Paul Carey wrote:
I see the ex-LIRR 213 is indicated as having its steam generator.

LIRR 213 was one of the C-420s leased by LIRR and returned to the lessor in (or about) 1977, and stored on the M&E RR.

I was involved in the purchase and operation of four of these C-420s for the Virginia & Maryland RR, including 213, which was later resold through a broker, in 1978 or early 1979. So far as I can recall, all these units had their steam generators removed by LIRR.

Perhaps this could be "double checked".


I may have to correct you on this one Paul. Talking to some of our museum members and the Dakota Southern RR through Wendell Hoffman it was found out that the 213 still retains its steam boiler despite the fact that it is no longer active. According to Hoffman the railroad is using the boiler as extra ballast and has no current plans to remove it from the locomotive. It suffers reportedly a crown-sheet failure making it inoperable as well as the fact that the exhaust ports were sealed over by the V&M RR before it was sold to them.

On a side note most LIRR C-420s retained their steam boilers even after they were removed from passenger service and regulated to MOW-freight runs. The factor that had them removed was the fact that the successor railroads that took them in had no need for them as they were loaded with asbestos and other hazardous materials. At most the railroads had them left in place for extra weight and due to the prohibitive expenses of removing them. Let me ask you Paul when was the last time you saw a steam heated passenger train on the LIRR?


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 Post subject: Re: Retained Locomotive Steam Generators
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:55 pm 

Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 443
Location: Illinois
Cameron Wolk wrote:

It suffers reportedly a crown-sheet failure making it inoperable as well as the fact that the exhaust ports were sealed over by the V&M RR before it was sold to them.



Steam generators don't have crown sheets.

Jeff

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 Post subject: Re: Retained Locomotive Steam Generators
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:07 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:34 pm
Posts: 166
Jdelhaye wrote:
Cameron Wolk wrote:

It suffers reportedly a crown-sheet failure making it inoperable as well as the fact that the exhaust ports were sealed over by the V&M RR before it was sold to them.



Steam generators don't have crown sheets.

Jeff


Sorry about that I mean't the coils inside the generator. Apparently according to Hoffman they've rotted out and are no longer useable. The boiler model inside the 213 is a Vapor-Clarkson 4653 steam generator


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 Post subject: Re: Retained Locomotive Steam Generators
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:34 pm 

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:11 pm
Posts: 13
Is this list supposed to be locos with relatively complete steam generators in them or a list of locos with just anything left of the steam generator ? LI 467 only has the rotten boiler tank in it. Nothing more. No piping no wiring no controls. literally nothing of the steam generator except a rotting boiler tank. I would suggest you remove the loco from your list since I promise you the rest of it will be gone in the spring some time.


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