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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe Alco PA #59 possible return to being operable
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 9:35 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:10 pm
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Location: Iron City
I have to laugh the way some of you speak of the 'FRA' as if they are some all knowing, secret police type outfit like the Gestapo or Savak.

The railroads effectively 'self-police' their compliance with FRA rules. Ergo, whatever railroad a completed 59 operates on will in turn be responsible for that particular units' compliance.

If past history is any dictum, I suspect that raising the requisite funding will be the core issue. Besides, whatever end-product that is the result isn't a PA-1. The essential features of that design are long gone.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe Alco PA #59 possible return to being operable
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:28 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
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NH0401 wrote:
Besides, whatever end-product that is the result isn't a PA-1. The essential features of that design are long gone.

Dave


An interesting question. If someone were restoring an E unit and wanted to use a single or even two 645s or 710s I would say it was not a restoration but a sort of frankenstein. But the situation with the Alco 244 and 251 engines is a bit different: they premiered only six years apart and thus were of the same era, they had the same bore and stroke and I believe the same horsepower. I am sure they could come up with a 244 but I am not sure it is worth putting up with the leaking internal fuel lines etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe Alco PA #59 possible return to being operable
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 11:00 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:58 am
Posts: 728
Quote:
The two PAs here ride trucks salvaged from FM Erie-built B-units that were part of a CN mobile welded rail plant. They are similar, but not completely identical to the original PA trucks.


The rail welding plant using the Erie-builts was actually CPR, Smiths Falls, Ontario.

Steve Hunter


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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe Alco PA #59 possible return to being operable
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 11:44 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:36 am
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Well what do we consider Union Pacific's E9's to be? Are they E9's or GP38-2's in a E9 Carbody? There's you will find your answer.

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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe Alco PA #59 possible return to being operable
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 11:50 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:45 pm
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PMC wrote:
I am sure they could come up with a 244.


There are no 16 cylinder 244 engines left. All of them have been scrapped. The 251 that is coming from the parts locomotive is of the correct type for the locomotive as rebuilt into a PA-4, which is much more reasonable than say, dropping a GE EVO prime mover into it.

As to putting 645s in an E-unit, some E-units have their 567 blocks but 645 power assemblies. It would be a much smaller change to substitute 645 power assemblies in a 567 block than substituting a 251 for a 244.

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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe Alco PA #59 possible return to being operable
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 12:00 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:29 pm
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Dave...you should hear the ins and outs of the way the FRA has been dealing with IP regarding locomotives used on the Hoosier State...they talk about it on Train Orders a bit. They are very serious about safety.

If a locomotive is to operate in an environment where lives are at risk then the FRA will insist that said locomotives can operate in a safe manner. A small museum kit-bashing a couple of scrap piles into a single unit will not be allowed to haul passengers on a Class 1 without close scrutiny. You can bet on it.

I will be hiding behind a coal pile until the "all clear" is called.

T7


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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe Alco PA #59 possible return to being operable
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 12:57 am 
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Location: Henderson Nevada
I doubt that FRA compliance will be any more complicated that "just restoring" the locomotive... a proper restoration will need proper serviceable brakes... proper dead man controls as installed in service... any work requires testing, documentation and certification (for valves and pressure tanks, etc...)

I wouldn't use Trainorders as a source for needed work... it is a railfan site (a good railfan site, but just a railfan site) The knowledge base there is not generally "up" on what is really needed, and is prone to rumor and such... and rumor and such is not what the FRA rules call for...

Of interest is the question of "what makes a PA a "PA""... I think of a PA as a body style... offered by the factory in PA-1 or PA-2... with later railroad upgrades being associated (not by the factory) with designations PA-3 and PA-4...

If a body and truck style then, isn't a salvaged former ATSF/DH/Mexican PA body, with reasonable trucks a "PA" (something)... If rehabilitated/restored with a later Alco prime mover (one installed by a later user when in service) isn't it still a PA?... not a PA-1 as it left the Alco factory, but as it might have appeared in service as repaired and upgraded...

The artifact may lack continuity... but is it still a "PA"? as would be defined in the museum world (in this case not caring about the minutia of railfan designations trying to define changes after it left the factory... )

Randy

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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe Alco PA #59 possible return to being operable
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 1:07 am 

Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:30 pm
Posts: 56
Personally, I would be completely happy to see all of the PA's in this country (all TWO of them) restored as authentically as possible. That being said, even if more modern components have to be used since no authentic replacement parts (trucks, for instance) are available, we will still have a reasonable facsimile of a PA for current and future generations to enjoy. And that is certainly better than NO operable PA's at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe Alco PA #59 possible return to being operable
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 1:21 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:44 am
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Sadly, there was an Alco 16-244 still extant as recently as 10 years ago. It was being used as a stationary power plant in an industrial building in Pennsylvania. It was offered for sale on ebay, but there were no takers, so it was scrapped when the building was demolished.

I also recall that D&H operated one of the PAs with a 12-244 briefly while its original engine was being rebuilt.

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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe Alco PA #59 possible return to being operable
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 3:20 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:44 am
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Link to a discussion about the last surviving 16-244 from 2006.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19942

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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe Alco PA #59 possible return to being operable
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 4:27 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:34 pm
Posts: 249
Being very honest a 60 year old locomotive is no more safer than a locomotive built in todays time. You'll most likely be just as safe in the high placed cab of an Alco PA if not more safer than what could be your average GP38-2. That said any engine can be made to original specs if the group or owner is willing to put in the cost necessary for its fabrication. Similarly, consulting with Fairbanks Morse regarding the inwards of the 505 I've been told that the newer components can be made to original standards as-built by Beloit if I'd like to put in say around a million dollars. If that info is indeed true then really anything can be possible given you're up for the challenge. On the case of PMC I do vividly remember the group saying a while back that they would EXPLORE the possibilities of operationally restoring 59 say they ever receive the appropriate funds,

Cameron


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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe Alco PA #59 possible return to being operable
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 6:28 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:10 pm
Posts: 670
Location: Iron City
I offer no judgement on the 59 groups' project. As Red Skelton used to say, 'good luck and God bless.

From a strict constructionist point of view:

The proposed end product (except for the shell) has no relationship to the PA spec. (DL-304).

Some of the items called out in the spec are as follows: 16-244 engine, GT-566 main generator, AM808 exciter, (2) GY-27 aux generators (battery charging and tm blowers) (2) GY-26 traction motor blowers, GE Amplidyne control, GE MG governor,etc. This equipment is the essence of the locomotive and is responsible for the locomotives' inherent performance characteristics...

The ATSF PA fleet was periodically modified over their early service life...ultimately undergoing two different heavy modification programs in the mid-1950's. One was the re-engine program by EMD of an A-B-A set-with the balance undergoing a GE initiated re-manufacturing program on ATSF property. Never forget that many early diesel locomotive designs evolved significantly over the period from construction to retirement.

The proposed locomotive will have: a 12-251E engine, a GE main alternator, ? model aux. gen, ? model exciter, unknown traction motor blower arrangement, 'Constant Kilowatt' excitation, Woodward governor...and probably other features that are not intrinsic to a DL-304 spec. This equipment set will yield a locomotive of as-yet unknown performance characteristics-no doubt very different than the PA-1. Not even close to the 'PA-4' spec., either.

I would also agree that the UP 'E-9's previously mentioned are not E-9's-because they don't conform to the E-9 spec.

Perhaps the more important question is this: to whom does this argument matter...or does it even matter at all ?

Dave

BTW: the 16-244 engine was purchased by a dealer, salvaged for parts and scrapped.

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Last edited by NH0401 on Fri Dec 25, 2015 6:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe Alco PA #59 possible return to being operable
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 6:43 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 12:13 pm
Posts: 407
Location: Baltimore. MD
Bulby wrote:
PMC wrote:
I am sure they could come up with a 244.


As to putting 645s in an E-unit, some E-units have their 567 blocks but 645 power assemblies. It would be a much smaller change to substitute 645 power assemblies in a 567 block than substituting a 251 for a 244.


Five or six of the BN/WSMTD 9900's were rebuilt into E9m's with "heavy block" 645s. The two that MARC held on to were these. When the 25 locos were rebuilt by MK, there were not enough qualified cores to build the 567 into "light block" 645, so new power plants were installed. It was MARC's intent to rebuild these last two into 3,000 hp E9-2 with alternators; however, Boise bid too high on the tender, which included rebuilding the GP-39's, and they were cut from the program and not upgraded. One became the donor for the IRM/Wisconsin and Southern's E9B, i think the other one is at IRM as it was.

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe Alco PA #59 possible return to being operable
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 6:56 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:10 pm
Posts: 670
Location: Iron City
Many (if not most) operators of 567 engined locomotives have substituted 645 packs for 567 packs, as the later are all but unavailable. An industry accepted practice-and invisible to most-unless one knows what to look far.

All and all, a GP-9 with 645 packs is still a GP-9.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: Santa Fe Alco PA #59 possible return to being operable
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 7:33 pm 

Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 11:27 am
Posts: 434
Location: Switching the Coach Yard
NH0401 wrote:
Many (if not most) operators of 567 engined locomotives have substituted 645 packs for 567 packs, as the later are all but unavailable. An industry accepted practice-and invisible to most-unless one knows what to look far.

All and all, a GP-9 with 645 packs is still a GP-9.

Dave


At risk of straying far from topic, this^^^ just simply could not be further from the truth. We've ordered 567 B, C, & D3 as well as E3 packs this calendar year and had no problem getting multiple quotes for new, utex and R&R and what we ordered shipped in under 5 days. The 567 engine components are still very supportable and we service multiple customers who run them. Granted the B packs are bought at a premium to some of the others, but they're still less expensive than the FDL and 251 that we purchase this year.

Don't get me wrong, we like the upgrade to 645 assemblies, but lets not bury the 567 just yet.

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