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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 5:33 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:45 pm
Posts: 12
googanelli wrote:
How many of these programs have started as a "pipe dream" that have become reality. It's a new day in Kentucky and a new group of guys with some solid names being brought in for preservation. They've signed a long term agreement with KRM which gets them the engine. 261 had the same issue 20 years ago and the fires went cold until they got ownership.

I can't wait to see 2716 steam. It's a solid story coming from KRM. Corman may very well be on board already. Many people said on here they wouldn't dare support a Chinese steamer. Here's the chance for rabid C&O fans to put their money where their hearts are!

Joe



Unfortunately Corman has no viable way to run this locomotive. CSX has restrictions on the old road which prohibits passenger trains, the LL branch cannot support a locomotive of this size.

What defines a long term lease? 10 years? It could take longer then that to fund raise 1.3 million which is an estimation of reported cost of this undertaking which seems severely light comparative to other locomotives in better condition that have been restore to operation in recent time.

The solid names in this group seem to live thousands of miles from this proposed undertaking which make it even more difficult and costly to undertake this. The few that are nearby do not have the understanding or skill set to see this project through.

Pipe dreams are great I have many, but it seems like this situation would be best with a start small and build up to you big dreams. They have no place stated to store this locomotive long term to even start this restore. This location would need to be with rail access, lets be honest this is almost a million pounds of steel so transportation after a restoration would be impossible, just has its nearly impossible now.

At this point in till more details are available, showing that its truly sustainable and achievable and not some ploy to circumvent the bank by KRM with donations going to a new organization instead of the museum (which mind you they have been in trouble for already) I think I will hold my wallet in my front pocket and save my money for a project that seems more achievable.

To further add prospective to this they propose to have this running by 2020, Big South Fork, has spent over 1.5 million and is three years PAST their projected date using contractors and still are not operating their locomotive.


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 5:48 pm 

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Don't see where the state is involved in stuffing and mounting Corman's engine. It is out of service anyway, past due for a 5-year cap inspection.


The plan as I understand it is that Corman is building a display building in Midway to house the engine and the caboose already on display in Midway. This building will almost be just like the building in downtown Lexington that the dinner train got sued over.

The government comes in where most of the display buildings cost is going to be covered by a grant just received by Corman.

As for it being out of service that's exactly one of our points. Why is someone bothering with restoring a much more expensive larger engine in a town where there is already a basically operable engine waiting that no one has any interest in seeing run. You get that thing a cap inspection and a blue card again and you're set to go but nobody has any interest in seeing it happen and then you want to fix an even BIGGER more unsuitable engine for the area?


  
 
 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 5:59 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:34 pm
Posts: 1888
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Story with details on state funding of Midway display of Corman engine.

http://www.kentucky.com/news/local/counties/woodford-county/article58871353.html

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Steven Harrod
Lektor
Danmarks Tekniske Universitet
Institut for Systemer, Produktion, og Ledelse


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 6:18 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:21 am
Posts: 384
Off topic point of clarification:

Quote:
Big South Fork, has spent over 1.5 million and is three years PAST their projected date using contractors and still are not operating their locomotive.


K&T #14 received first funding and began disassembly in Sept 2002. At that time, project cost was funded at $500,000 and estimated time to completion was 3-5 years using in house labor, volunteers, and limited contractors as needed. RR management chose to hire first contractor in 2003 to "expedite" the restoration. First contractor ran out of funds by Dec 2004, and work stopped for many years.

To date, my understanding is over $2 million spent, second contractor working intermittently, and not complete after 13 years. No completion date known.

Note: This loco is on it's own RR, and in a large shop building with a 15ton bridge crane. There is a small, basic machine shop behind the large shop building.


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 6:35 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:04 am
Posts: 151
Location: Argos, Indiana
I rarely get on RyPN anymore. The negatively found here is exemplified by the string of responses in this thread. Many projects fail because of a lack of support and that support rarely comes from the railfan community.

More railfans would rather chase a train than purchase a ticket. When the 2716 ran in Logansport several years ago, I made sure I purchased my ticket, even though I never rode the train.

Does this project have difficulties? I'm sure it does, but most of the comments I've seen are just broad speculation. Instead of damning what someone is trying to do, how about offering a little bit of support and encouragement?

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Bob Barcus, Treasurer
Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum
North Judson, Indiana


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 6:37 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:15 pm
Posts: 125
Oh the Kentucky Railway museum, how you pain me (L&N Big Emma and IC 2613). You better get this project done, and find a way to advertise it to a company such as NS (Southern used her in 1981 and 1982, hence that she ran in 1996 due to still having flue time). If I were the museum, I'd find a way to get money, and ask for help to restore this fast. I'm not sure how much work needs to be done besides the 1472 day inspection, so I won't interpret. Please oh please can you not fail for once.


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 6:43 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:28 pm
Posts: 171
Location: Northern WV
Back before I retired, I worked in IT. I remember lengthy training of the seven stages to a successful project. There was also a humorous take on that process which is below. I guess KSHCO is in phase #2.

Seven Stages of a Project

Phase 1: Uncritical acceptance.
Phase 2: Wild enthusiasm.
Phase 3: Dejected disillusionment.
Phase 4: Total confusion.
Phase 5: Search for the guilty.
Phase 6: Punishment of the innocent.
Phase 7: Promotion of nonparticipants.

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Roger Cole


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:19 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:10 am
Posts: 2332
rbarcus wrote:
I rarely get on RyPN anymore. The negatively found here is exemplified by the string of responses in this thread. Many projects fail because of a lack of support and that support rarely comes from the railfan community.

More railfans would rather chase a train than purchase a ticket. When the 2716 ran in Logansport several years ago, I made sure I purchased my ticket, even though I never rode the train.

Does this project have difficulties? I'm sure it does, but most of the comments I've seen are just broad speculation. Instead of damning what someone is trying to do, how about offering a little bit of support and encouragement?



Bingo.


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:21 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5254
Location: southeastern USA
Let's give them a chance to try to do what they propose to do - I know that have the talent to make her run again, but the rest? We'll see........ and wouldn't we all like to see it happen? Do we really believe all that wasn't taken into consideration before the announcement was made?

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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:33 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:45 pm
Posts: 12
rbarcus wrote:
I rarely get on RyPN anymore. The negatively found here is exemplified by the string of responses in this thread. Many projects fail because of a lack of support and that support rarely comes from the railfan community.

More railfans would rather chase a train than purchase a ticket. When the 2716 ran in Logansport several years ago, I made sure I purchased my ticket, even though I never rode the train.

Does this project have difficulties? I'm sure it does, but most of the comments I've seen are just broad speculation. Instead of damning what someone is trying to do, how about offering a little bit of support and encouragement?


I think the negativity in this case is fueled by the fact that many instances of same scenario of restoring locomotives in much better condition then this (i suspect they are being severely optimistic on the condition) have cost far more money and taken far more time with far more involvement then they seem to have presently, top that off with the fact that this from a museum that already has a locomotive that needs a restoration (also in far better shape) makes this a interesting dream.

Does this project have difficulties? More then i think you can even understand its great to have emotions involved and wanting your childhood dream to come true and have a operating steam locomotive at hand, but my other questions that seem to be avoided is everyone donates money for this childhood pipe dream that never comes to fruition were is that money lost to? They have no rolling stock, location, home tracks ETC. so it feels more like flushing money down a toilet at the comment then a restoration of a locomotive. BSFR has a suitable shop to do a restoration in and take 30 years to do so and maintain a operating railroad to pay the bills. How are they going pay the bills and keep at locomotive? I stand by my comment then there is more to this story then stated currently and parts of it seems fishy, KRM is in dire need of a steam locomotive and revenue to sustain its mounting debt and they lease out "a perfect candidate for restoration" instead attempting restore themselves and lease it for money in the same manner presented here?

Like I have said i wish them luck one more operating steam locomotive the merrier in my opinion but asking for 1.5 million dollars without more info then given is risky business


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:35 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8358
Location: Baltimore, MD
rbarcus wrote:
I rarely get on RyPN anymore. The negatively found here is exemplified by the string of responses in this thread. Many projects fail because of a lack of support and that support rarely comes from the railfan community.

Does this project have difficulties? I'm sure it does, but most of the comments I've seen are just broad speculation. Instead of damning what someone is trying to do, how about offering a little bit of support and encouragement?

The problem is that, in at least some cases (not mine, because I'm not saying anything pro or con until I see/read/hear a LOT more), the cynicism of one seasoned veteran (such as Brother Laepple) far outweighs a hundred slobbering foamers on a Facebook group or TrainOrders saying "o wow cool we gotta see this cant wait!!!!"--or, at least, it should. (Maybe if the foamers said instead "Shut up and take my money!!!"?)

The veterans have been there. They know the "big picture"--not just the technical, but the logistical, the financial, the political, and the legal. If the 2716 guys answer their questions or cynical barbs correctly, then we/they know they've got a feasible plan. If they acknowledge "We know, but we're working on it/have a plan," well, okay, give them a chance. If they answer completely different questions from the ones you've asked while trying to pretend to answer your questions, then you've accidentally stumbled into a rally or press conference for a U.S. presidential candidate, and you should run away.

As for ticket sales, I'll start worrying as soon as one of these current NS trips fails to sell out--the Asheville trip sold out in one hour, save for what appears to be a just-added dome car ($419 round trip).


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:40 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:31 am
Posts: 1102
Location: South Carolina
IIRC, the engine was unexpectedly found in need of extensive firebox work mid-season during its short excursion career on the Southern. Hence the 765 was hired to fill in. I'm guessing the running gear is in good condition considering how little it ran after restoration.

The group should have a very good idea of what's needed to put the engine in service, plus they have 2 groups with running Van Sweringen Berkshires to provide corporate knowledge.

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The Ultimate Steam Page
http://www.trainweb.org/tusp


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:15 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:04 am
Posts: 151
Location: Argos, Indiana
Hopefully, we all know that there are difficulties with any project... However, I think some people may be missing my point - stop being negative based upon armchair presumptions.

It hasn't even been 24 hours and doom and gloom has been predicted by the majority. Thankfully, that sorry attitude hasn't prevented many projects from actually getting completed for the enjoyment of all. Give them the benefit of the doubt until other information is provided, for goodness sake!

_________________
Bob Barcus, Treasurer
Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum
North Judson, Indiana


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:20 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:56 pm
Posts: 2
Location: Kentucky
We are pleased to have had such an amazing response to our project. In the 18 hours since the release, we have received 18,000 website hits, 6500 video views on Facebook and over a thousand facebook page likes. This is not to mention the many emails that we have received today expressing interest from potential volunteers, or the thousands of dollars pledged on a Superbowl Sunday morning in February. It has been an extraordinarily humbling experience.

We finalized the contract today with the Kentucky Railway Museum, and the project can now begin.

There is not time, nor emotional necessity to address everything said thus far in this thread. We fully realize going into this announcement that the majority of the response on forums such as these would be strewn with negativity and pessimism. That is to be expected, unfortunately. While many of the issues that were raised in this thread regarding this endeavor are the same ones that we are confronting or already have confronted, that still does not validate the hostility or nearly giddy approach to telling us "why we can't". But we can take it....and I digress.

We have entered into an extremely amicable agreement with the Kentucky Railway Museum who, contrary to what some have alluded to, are a fully capable organization on the verge of a renaissance. Our dealings with them revealed that both our board and theirs have the best intentions of preservation in mind. The long-term lease that we have crafted together puts in provisions for their asset to be safeguarded while giving us the freedom to market the locomotive as our hallmark. Our members have helped with L&N 152 work days; we have received donations from their board members. This type of symbiosis is encouraging, and the spirit of this collaborative mindset will run deep through the partnerships that we are already fostering with organizations both revered and fledgling.

KSHCO fully intends to be transparent, and our website it proof of that transparency. There is no man behind the curtain. In fact, there is no curtain. We have created and produced all of our own content in-house, and we are excited about making our endeavor an open book....a way for people to learn, hands on. There is also a time where information regarding unfinished negotiations should not be disclosed to anyone beyond the involved parties. Because today was the official finalizing of the lease agreement, we have only been able to take some of the exciting opportunities that we have been presented with so far....and now that we are fully able to speak with an equipment control agreement in hand, we can fully explore those options. Some will pan out; others will not.

Nothing that I can say at this point will quell the firestorm that announcements such as this ignite. Our project may indeed fail as many of you seem to want it to. It also has the potential to be a wild success. From the team that we have put together and the expertise and resources that we have amassed, we are extraordinarily optimistic about the future for C&O 2716. Our city and the surrounding region is chomping at the bit for a project such as this.

We will continue to provide the public with updates regarding what we are doing, and look forward to having the restoration process be as rewarding as the operations that it will eventually enable.

Chris Campbell
President
Kentucky Steam Heritage Corp.


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:48 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:45 pm
Posts: 12
Kentucky Steam wrote:
We are pleased to have had such an amazing response to our project. In the 18 hours since the release, we have received 18,000 website hits, 6500 video views on Facebook and over a thousand facebook page likes. This is not to mention the many emails that we have received today expressing interest from potential volunteers, or the thousands of dollars pledged on a Superbowl Sunday morning in February. It has been an extraordinarily humbling experience.

We finalized the contract today with the Kentucky Railway Museum, and the project can now begin.

There is not time, nor emotional necessity to address everything said thus far in this thread. We fully realize going into this announcement that the majority of the response on forums such as these would be strewn with negativity and pessimism. That is to be expected, unfortunately. While many of the issues that were raised in this thread regarding this endeavor are the same ones that we are confronting or already have confronted, that still does not validate the hostility or nearly giddy approach to telling us "why we can't". But we can take it....and I digress.

We have entered into an extremely amicable agreement with the Kentucky Railway Museum who, contrary to what some have alluded to, are a fully capable organization on the verge of a renaissance. Our dealings with them revealed that both our board and theirs have the best intentions of preservation in mind. The long-term lease that we have crafted together puts in provisions for their asset to be safeguarded while giving us the freedom to market the locomotive as our hallmark. Our members have helped with L&N 152 work days; we have received donations from their board members. This type of symbiosis is encouraging, and the spirit of this collaborative mindset will run deep through the partnerships that we are already fostering with organizations both revered and fledgling.

KSHCO fully intends to be transparent, and our website it proof of that transparency. There is no man behind the curtain. In fact, there is no curtain. We have created and produced all of our own content in-house, and we are excited about making our endeavor an open book....a way for people to learn, hands on. There is also a time where information regarding unfinished negotiations should not be disclosed to anyone beyond the involved parties. Because today was the official finalizing of the lease agreement, we have only been able to take some of the exciting opportunities that we have been presented with so far....and now that we are fully able to speak with an equipment control agreement in hand, we can fully explore those options. Some will pan out; others will not.

Nothing that I can say at this point will quell the firestorm that announcements such as this ignite. Our project may indeed fail as many of you seem to want it to. It also has the potential to be a wild success. From the team that we have put together and the expertise and resources that we have amassed, we are extraordinarily optimistic about the future for C&O 2716. Our city and the surrounding region is chomping at the bit for a project such as this.

We will continue to provide the public with updates regarding what we are doing, and look forward to having the restoration process be as rewarding as the operations that it will eventually enable.

Chris Campbell
President
Kentucky Steam Heritage Corp.


Well I am sold, were can I mail my blank check to?


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