C&O 2716 and her return to steam

jcmarksbury · **Joined:** Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:58 am **Posts:** 18

boilerwash wrote:

Plus the fact your only real support is the Central Kentucky railfan scene which is just one big long history of infighting, exclusion, and discrimination.

I've always wondered how this happened. It seems like it has always been this way and has lead to the destruction of historical equipment along with a locomotive being stuffed and mounted about 10 miles away from a museum it could easily run at.

Who knows, maybe this project will be the catalyst to bring about that change that's been needed here for many years.

J3a-614 · **Posted:** Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:38 am

Two comments on this, both in regard to the engine having a place to run:

1. Everyone, including myself, didn't think much would come of the T1 new build project, but it seems to be coming nicely. Same can be said for corporate interest in restoring a Big Boy, same for seeing two Reading T-1s under restoration, and at one time, for seeing a C&O 2-6-6-2 run. We don't know--and I might add, there were questions about where to run the PRR T1 as well.

2. In regard for a place to run, that's going to be in the future at this stage, and if the PRR T1 people can find a place to run that speedster, then these guys should find a place as well.

I'll add one more comment in regard to where to run. . .nobody is more disappointed than I am at the attitude of CSX to passenger service and steam. I think they are missing out very badly with the attitude they have, and I also think CSX and the rail industry in general is being hypocritical in being anti passenger and anti heritage, at least when they claim liability problems, when the same industry and people accept tank trains loaded with volatile crude oil that has demonstrated an amazing ability to cause spectacular and costly accidents, including one that incinerated half a town and 47 of its citizens.

Having said that, I also think a lot of the problem is, frankly, the current management. It simply needs to change, and one day it will. The example--Norfolk Southern, which ran an excursion program for years, then had ONE management team kill it, only to have a newer one revive it, even if in limited form.

We just need the right people to get in, and then a steam program, heritage operator, or even a passenger service will have to use the opportunity to prove itself to be worthwhile to keep around. That's something the old SR-NS program never quite did, and something I think is essential for one today.

Heck, I've been arguing that for over 30 years now. . .

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Rob Gardner · **Joined:** Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:50 pm **Posts:** 412

In short, "What Mr. Glueck said." As an unabashed fan of the C&O and Superpower Steam, I would be lying if I didn't say I was a little excited by this announcement.

It is quite curious that Mr. Corman's pride and joy would wind up stuffed and mounted while needing relatively little work to continue to steam on. Also more curious that they could manage to get state funds to build a shed to put it in. Although I suspect that may have more to do with Kentuckians respect for the business empire Rick Corman built over his career.

Lastly, I highly doubt that the gentlemen who have staked their names and reputations on this project would do so in haste without having looked at one another and asked all of those questions posed in this thread and made sure they had solid, favorable answers to said questions. Perhaps they actually know something we don't know.

Rob Gardner

jcmarksbury · **Joined:** Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:58 am **Posts:** 18

Rob Gardner wrote:

It is quite curious that Mr. Corman's pride and joy would wind up stuffed and mounted while needing relatively little work to continue to steam on. Also more curious that they could manage to get state funds to build a shed to put it in. Although I suspect that may have more to do with Kentuckians respect for the business empire Rick Corman built over his career.

Rob Gardner

The shed already exists. They are tearing down the one built in Lexington for the Dinner Train and rebuilding it in Midway. The shed (and the operation of the Dinner Train) has been involved in several legal battles over the years. Instead of continuing to fight the battles the RJ Corman group decided to just shut down the train and remove the shed from city property as they were asked to do. (There's much more to the story, but I'll just say that in the end, Mr. Corman still got what he wanted.)

Given all the materials for the shed will be free, the only cost will be for labor and preparing the site.

bigjim4life · **Posted:** Mon Feb 08, 2016 2:19 am

Wow...I normally get my daily dose of negativity from TrainOrders - but this is nuts...

boilerwash · **Posted:** Mon Feb 08, 2016 8:53 am

Quote:

Who knows, maybe this project will be the catalyst to bring about that change that's been needed here for many years.

Please excuse me while I go laugh.

railfan261 · **Joined:** Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:30 pm **Posts:** 215

boilerwash wrote:

Please excuse me while I go laugh.

And please excuse me while I tell you chronic cynicism is a good way to give yourself a stroke.

Seriously, why all the negativity re: C&0 2716? I am appalled by all the negative-minded people who came out of the woodwork here to bash this project. What, you hate the C&O or something? Come on.

The 2716 people can count on my support. While the negative-minded hangers on here dismiss her restoration as hopeless, I say bring the old girl back to steam once and for all.

as12 · **Joined:** Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:24 pm **Posts:** 113

I'm quoting from the KSHC promo video:

Quote:

.....they preformed a three day inspection on the veteran engine. What they found was remarkable. "When I first heard about this locomotive, there were rumors, about one mechanical 'boondoggle' condition or another. Whether it's the firebox is shot, and the whole thing needs replacement, or the machinery is destroyed, to the spring rigging is just destroyed.... Well, none of these things are true.

The locomotive, as a matter of fact, is in better shape in many respects, than most locomotives that are in service today."

Interesting that upon inspection the engine isn't that bad off, according to the KSHC.

beacon_joe · **Joined:** Wed May 16, 2012 2:51 pm **Posts:** 37

It's been a while since I have been on this site, and now I remember why. Egos, jelousy, and narrow minded ignorance runs rampant here. Give these people a chance, not everyone knows everything that surrounds their project. They could be in the middle of negotiations on some of these issues and can not reveal everything that is going on.

At least they are making the attempt at restoring the 2716, that's more than most people are willing to do. I commend anyone who makes the leap and follows their dreams, they have more courage than those who sit back and criticize.

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:55 am

May I simply point out, for the record, that there are, at this point, MORE posts in this thread negatively complaining about "negativity" being expressed than actual posters expressing what I would term "negativity" (as opposed to simply reasoned cynicism)..............

........... and that BOTH parties expressing "negativity" are ones that choose to do so under a cloak of an alias, with one seldom seen here.

I personally find the "drama queens" whining about "negativity" and the relentless advocates for unfettered, unquestioning boosterism FAR more off-putting than the negativity being complained about.

Andrew Durden · **Posted:** Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:14 pm

Steamguy73 wrote:

Oh the Kentucky Railway museum, how you pain me (L&N Big Emma and IC 2613).

What does this have to do with, well, anything? The folks who made those decisions are probably dead, and almost certainly have nothing to do with KRM. What good does it do to trash the current folks over perceived mistakes that were made by their (long ago) predecessors?

Dave Lewandoski · **Joined:** Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:58 pm **Posts:** 919

Interesting that upon inspection the engine isn't that bad off, according to the KSHC.[/quote]

and also interesting that this is the second engine that was supposed to be in really bad shape, has also been found not to be the case.

Lincoln Penn · **Joined:** Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm **Posts:** 794

If it truly is in better condition that most locomotives running today, does that say more about 2716 or more about those other locomotives? And if this is true, why isn't 2716 running already?

Let my cynical memory throw out a few numbers for some of you who let your enthusiasm overtake your sense of reality:

ATSF 2912.

ATSF 5000

ATSF 3463

NKP 759

SP 2479

SP 982 (twice; with another try coming)

UP 4018

UP 833

SLSF 1352

C&O 2700

C&O 2716 (Several times.)

C&o 2789

C&G 509

The GN 4-8-2 at Havre, MT.

NC&StL 576 (Several times.)

And several others.

whodom · **Posted:** Mon Feb 08, 2016 2:26 pm

as12 wrote:

Interesting that upon inspection the engine isn't that bad off, according to the KSHC.

As I said in my previous post, I wouldn't be surprised to find that the running gear is in excellent condition. OTOH, the Southern (which became Norfolk Southern while this engine was under lease) side-lined that engine in the middle of a very busy excursion season, and went to the trouble to not only lease NKP 765 to fill in for it, but they paid for some fairly expensive repairs (refurbishment of both trailing truck axles) to ensure 765 could complete the season without major issues. NKP 765 finished out the season, and they never returned 2716 to service after that.

I heard from people directly involved with the Southern steam excursion program at that time that 2716 had significant firebox problems and that's why they side-lined it mid-season. Now that doesn't necessarily mean the firebox is rotten, but I'd certainly expect the new crew to find more than a broken staybolt or two.

Kentucky Steam · **Posted:** Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:06 pm

Here is some info regarding our inspection of the locomotive, as posted on our website

http://www.kentuckysteam.org/#!what/jtibi

Quote:

Tentative Plan and Initial Inspection Analysis

Starting November 6th, 2015 members of KSHCO and KRM conducted a three-day inspection of C&O 2716. The conclusion of the inspection was that 2716 is an excellent and viable candidate for restoration. Thanks to detailed 1952 C&O shop records coupled with first-hand accounts of work done to the locomotive during its 1980 and 1995 re-build, it was surmised that a large majority of the locomotive's integral components have very low appreciable operating miles / time. While some deterioration has occurred due to exposure to the elements, there is no reason to believe that any of the portions of the engine that were not fully accessible during the inspection would require replacement or complete rebuild.

Roller Bearing Conversion.
The locomotive is currently located under a shed roof at the Kentucky Railway Museum in New Haven, KY. The first phase of restoration is to ready the locomotive for being safely moved to a restoration site. The majority of this preparation will be converting the tender trucks from traditional "friction bearings" to E.P. rotating end cap roller bearings.

Site Selection.
There are currently four sites in Central Kentucky being evaluated for potential locations for re-build. Once a site has been chosen, it will be announced to the general public, and an effort will be begun to ready the area for a full mechanical rebuild of the locomotive.

Move to Restoration Site. The engine will be moved from KRM to the selected site
Disassembly and Evaluation. Once the locomotive is placed in a secure location, it will be disassembled and prepared for a full evaluation. This will provide access to portions of the engine that were not accessible during the initial inspection. A major portion of this will be a full ultrasonic test of the boiler

Boiler Rehabilitation.
The boiler has initially been identified to be in good condition, as many portions were installed new in 1952 during a major rebuild of the locomotive. The firebox interior will be a major focus of the rebuild, as several sections have initially been identified as needing replacing. That being said, a good portion of the firebox interior is in remarkably good shape, and will prove to be an excellent base for rehabbing rather than replacing.

Running Gear Repair.
The initial inspection of the running gear did not indicate that any large-scale rebuild will be necessary. The valve cages are in good condition, though the cylinder liners will be replaced. The driving wheel bearing boxes appear to be in good condition, though they will be fully disassembled and evaluated by a Timken representative once the driving wheels are removed. Other minor repairs are anticipated, including replacement of the lead truck springs

Spring Replacement.
The only other large-scale repair to the locomotive that is anticipated is the replacement of the driving axle springs. The current springs are worn, and allow the locomotive to ride 2-4" lower than it should.

Other Repairs.
The initial inspection indicated that many pieces of the locomotive, including appliances and tender cistern, are in excellent shape, needing very little invasive work. However in the interests of prudent budgeting, any portion of the engine that was unable to be thoroughly evaluated was estimated to be in "worst case scenario" condition.

C&O 2716 and her return to steam

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