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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:35 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 794
Rob Gardner wrote:
Why couldn't it go out by rail over the same bridges it crossed when it came back to KRM in the late 90's, unless the bridges have been downgraded since then?

The National Park Service was convinced some years ago that a rail topped culvert had been replaced in the Cuyahoga Valley with a precast box culvert that would not support 765 but that turned out to be erroneous. And they don't even operate over it at restricted or walking speed now.

Rob Gardner



There have been several serious floods and washouts on that line that happened AFTER the 2716 was moved in. I am not claiming or even assuming that the bridges won't handle it now, but I would never assume that just because it went in there easily 15 or 20 years ago that it could come out of there just as easily now, especially considering those incidents.


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:04 pm 

Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:42 pm
Posts: 31
A few years ago I asked a volunteer before I got involved with the museum about why 2716 couldn't use the line if restored and was told it couldn't fit through the bridges. The floods probably could have damaged some of the bridges I suppose. You also have to make sure CSX would be willing to transport 2716 since that's the only rail line out of the museum.


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:22 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 794
SwadeTrainz wrote:
A few years ago I asked a volunteer before I got involved with the museum about why 2716 couldn't use the line if restored and was told it couldn't fit through the bridges. The floods probably could have damaged some of the bridges I suppose. You also have to make sure CSX would be willing to transport 2716 since that's the only rail line out of the museum.


How did it fit through the bridges when it went in?


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:57 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:45 pm
Posts: 12
Lincoln Penn wrote:
SwadeTrainz wrote:
A few years ago I asked a volunteer before I got involved with the museum about why 2716 couldn't use the line if restored and was told it couldn't fit through the bridges. The floods probably could have damaged some of the bridges I suppose. You also have to make sure CSX would be willing to transport 2716 since that's the only rail line out of the museum.


How did it fit through the bridges when it went in?


It will fit through the bridges, as I understand the larger steel bridge has some serious deterioration on its concrete footers and weight maybe a significant issue currently, I have heard no mention of it being repaired in my visits to KRM. Currently I believe KRM is having some significant money troubles as a result of poor decision making in the aftermath of the flood.


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:45 pm 

Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:42 pm
Posts: 31
I have no idea, it might've been a miscommunication. I've heard a lot of rumors of it being too heavy for the line but I don't know the details on why. It probably has something to do with bridge deterioration. I'm sure they'll find some way to get it out.


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:13 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2226
all this blithering about this engine, I was myself most surprised when in a meeting of the Fort Wayne Railfans club that the 767 we all knew about was going to be restored to operation. I went wait whut?!? I took it on myself to film every possible inch of its restoration. We all know now 767 was returned to its original number 765, the NKP made an official renumbering for the donation to Ft Wayne, but it really wasn't the same engine, we all knew that but it represented a purpose to Ft Wayne.

There was a dedicated group of guys to get this engine operable and it worked.

So let it be the the same for 2716.


nuff said.


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:01 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:29 pm
Posts: 350
As an old guy I remember when the Clinchfield acquired the 2716 to boost their steam program. It was quickly discovered how heavy the 2716 was when it came to moving it over old sidings. I seem to remember it turned over some rail...somewhere.

I have also seen some mention in this forum of the NS steam program expressed in glowing terms. I am not sure if everybody is aware but the dynamics of the NS program have changed considerably. It is much scaled down and the long-term future of operating steam on the NS is in question. Also if CP (or any other buyers for that matter) acquire NS..."Poof" there will likely be a rapid end to steam on the NS ever again. This is a very real possibility.

T7


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am 

Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:41 pm
Posts: 460
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Someone mentioned the the locomotive might be too large for the "modern" RR infrastructure. Just for reference, according to Wikipedia the 2716 weighs 460,000 pounds and the tender another 388,000 pounds. The Wiki article did not indicate whether that weight was in working order or empty weight. For reference, an SD70ACe weighs in at 432,000 pounds.

I suspect that weight will not be an issue. Width of rolling stock has not changed significantly over the years and vertical clearances have mostly been raised to handle double stack trains.


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:25 am 

Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:05 am
Posts: 416
Allowed loading for railroad bridges:
Static load X 1.91% for steam loco above 5 mph
Static load X 1.33% for diesel loco above 5 mph


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:04 pm 

Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:42 pm
Posts: 31
It's not necessarily the problem of running 2716 over other tracks around Lexington, it's the problem of moving 2716 over the Kentucky Railway Museum's trackage. The tracks and bridges aren't as in as good of shape as they were back in the very early 2000's when the locomotive returned to the museum. If they want it to be easily transported with having to take the locomotive apart to move it, then they'd probably move it over KRM's tracks provided the bridges would still hold.

I'm hoping the day they decide to move it off the property I'll be able to go down and video the move, especially if they move it over the tracks.


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:36 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:45 pm
Posts: 12
SwadeTrainz wrote:
It's not necessarily the problem of running 2716 over other tracks around Lexington, it's the problem of moving 2716 over the Kentucky Railway Museum's trackage. The tracks and bridges aren't as in as good of shape as they were back in the very early 2000's when the locomotive returned to the museum. If they want it to be easily transported with having to take the locomotive apart to move it, then they'd probably move it over KRM's tracks provided the bridges would still hold.

I'm hoping the day they decide to move it off the property I'll be able to go down and video the move, especially if they move it over the tracks.



I think that maybe the very problem, as stated CSX has had some pretty large and influential organizations attempt to get steam across their tracks and refused. I don't see that as a viable options. If they get it done there is going to be a lot of other organizations bewildered and stunned.


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:08 pm 

Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:32 pm
Posts: 79
I am excited about the potential return of 2716,but I wonder if this group considered any other engines? NC&STL 576 in Nashville would have the advantage of TCRM's excursion train and the ex-Tennessee Central to run on.The line at least to Lebanon could handle it since it's been rebuilt for commuter trains. http://www.ncstl.com/576/576today.htm


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:36 pm 

Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:42 pm
Posts: 31
I'm not entirely sure, I believe someone from the organization stated they chose 2716 because of its close ties to Kentucky history and it had such bad luck twice in a role trying to be used for excursion service. I know the organization's efforts are supposed to be relatively separate from donations going to the KRM, especially as the KRM has its hands full right now with #152's restoration as well.


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:15 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:26 am
Posts: 51
KRM is conducting the necessary infrastructure and track work this year. They already have funds set aside for the repairs. Like I mentioned already, this was scheduled to be done regardless of our 2716 project and subsequent necessary move.

The core of our group are from Central Kentucky, and we are interested in preserving and reviving the railroad history in our area. The 576 would not have been historically relevant to our region, though it does provide a little more flexibility in terms of eventual operation because of its smaller size / weight. It also has been outdoors a lot longer and still has an abatement process to go through which would considerably increase the cost of a thorough evaluation.

2716 was chosen because we had already done extensive research on the locomotive and had it on good authority from our friends at Fort Wayne that the engine's rumored shortcomings had been greatly exaggerated. Since she has run recently, was in the area (just an hour by interstate from Lexington), and already had a history as being a famous excursion engine (with quite a few fans), we decided to investigate further. When the inspection was done, we had every reason to be critical. Putting a significant amount of time and money into launching a campaign for an engine that was not in good shape would have been a bad idea. Jason, who led the inspection, was going in expecting the worst. We came out of the inspection with extremely encouraging findings. Enough, in fact, to launch a full scale attempt to restore her.


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 Post subject: Re: C&O 2716 and her return to steam
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:41 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 1073
If I remember correctly, the city of Nashville has said they'll require cash reserves of something like $4 million before allowing any organization to restore and run 576. On top of this I'd expect the city would require a detailed plan as to how the locomotive would be stored, maintained, etc.

I also recall that the tracks adjacent to the park are CSX, and there is NOT a happy way out of that area for a locomotive on a flatbed truck or transporter.

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