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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:35 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2018
without ripping up rails, what money is there to do this trail biz? and the tupper lake biz?

Were talking miles and miles of work, and today's biz aint coming cheap. This is a dreamer quest going nowhere with very poor planning


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:06 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:55 pm
Posts: 669
Location: Warren, PA
There's still significant Transportation Enhancement money out there, for states that elected to keep it, and the trail interests have been far more successful than the rail interests to locking it up for their projects. That's particularly true in New York. The Ashokan trail project funding was FhWA/enhancement, administered by NYDOT, so it 'kind of' looks like state funding but isn't really.

At least in NY, there are three things that converge to make trails far, far more expensive than what they were 10 years ago....

1) FwHA minimum trail width standards of 10 feet plus shoulders is wider than most roadbeds, so you're back into environmental permitting to either widen the roadbed or excavate it down to a wider level. No more trails the width of ties and just dust-compact the ballast. Oh, and for an accessible trail with 25mph bikes, add guardrail.
2) Tie disposal regs by state - NY is particularly tough that you have to dispose of all ties - relays can only be sold to a railroad, no retail sales, everything else to a landfill as there are very few cogen facilities that can grind and burn ties. We're figuring $7-10 per dead tie depending on transportation costs to a landfill.
3) Scrap market for rail is down significantly from some prior estimates of trail construction. For all intents and purposes, anything much lighter than 115# doesn't have much of a domestic relay market, so even if in 'ok' shape, may only command reroll or scrap price. Won't pay for the trail.

But, the 'big money' for trails is still there, just don't be shocked by 'how much???'

That's one of the major reasons why I've been advocating rails-with-trails using local or true state funding, because you don't hit a lot of the truly, truly expensive design standard issues that turn it into a giant conflict between everybody. If you really tunnel into the underlying issues here, what turns trail people against rail in many cases is the funding and design restrictions that they are given with the 'gift' of federal money. I've even had state trails people complain to me privately about how miserable it makes their job, even without rail complications.


Last edited by Randy Gustafson on Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:14 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:06 am
Posts: 10
If it weren't for the Va Creeper Trail, a big chunk of South west VA would be totally dead today. NC was stupid for letting its part of that rail line slip through its hands.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:41 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:15 am
Posts: 444
Randy,

The Rail Materials places (A&K, Brown, etc...) don't want anything with a date stamp earlier than 1975, which means most of the rail would have to be cut into 2-3 foot lengths (or smaller) and recycled as Virgin Steel (for best price). Only places that would take the older rail would be a compatable shortline or Museum operation.

Rich C.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:00 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 435
Another update, saying that the Judge still has not ruled:
Quote:
No time frame has been set to resolve a lawsuit against the state over a proposed rail trail.

“The decision remains, sub judice, or still before the court,” Franklin County Clerk Kip Cassavaw wrote in an email Wednesday.

The lawsuit was filed more than a year ago by the Adirondack Rail Preservation Society, which operates seasonal tourist trains under the Adirondack Scenic Railroad name.

Link to the full article in the August 10, 2017 Adirondack Daily Enterprise: No time frame for decision on rail-trail lawsuit


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:59 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 435
The latest Adirondack BANANA (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything) news:
Quote:
SARANAC LAKE — The Lake Clear Association says it’s concerned about the state Department of Environmental Conservation’s plan to increase access to the lake through the draft Saranac Lakes Wild Forest Unit Management Plan.

The group, which is made up of Lake Clear homeowners, is also worried about potential impacts from the state’s proposed recreational trail along the Adirondack railroad corridor.

“We don’t want any more public access to the lake, and I think we have some pretty good reasons for that,” association President Peter Lanahan said during a Thursday presentation to the Harrietstown Town Council.
and
Quote:
At some point, the rail trail is or is not going to happen,” Lanahan added. “It presents a lot of management issues if it does occur — not only the access but the parking, the risk of invasive species with people bringing in boats over the rail trail possibly.

“Our point is, we’re going a little too fast here. Let’s take the resources we have and make certain the rail trail is known and understood, and get some management experience there, and don’t undertake these other proposals in isolation from that.”

Denise Williams of the Girl Scouts’ Lake Clear Camp said she’s concerned about the safety of her campers with the proposals for additional access.

“Right now we’re sort of in our own little secluded area,” she said. As that bike trail gets added in and that camping area gets added in, now I have more people that are backed up right against where my girls are. We also have a sailing program on the lake, and we’re looking to put back a scuba program. We also do a ‘Seahorse Swim’ that goes to the beach and back. Without a horsepower (limit) and some natural barriers, we’re going to have to eliminate those as we start to add access. It’s dangerous to our girls.”

“We’re not saying we don’t share the lake with the public,” Lanahan said. “We’re just saying we have to manage the risks.”

Link to the full article, in the August 12, 2017 Adirondack Daily Enterprise:
Lake Clear group opposes increased access


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