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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:35 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2095
without ripping up rails, what money is there to do this trail biz? and the tupper lake biz?

Were talking miles and miles of work, and today's biz aint coming cheap. This is a dreamer quest going nowhere with very poor planning


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:06 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:55 pm
Posts: 687
Location: Warren, PA
There's still significant Transportation Enhancement money out there, for states that elected to keep it, and the trail interests have been far more successful than the rail interests to locking it up for their projects. That's particularly true in New York. The Ashokan trail project funding was FhWA/enhancement, administered by NYDOT, so it 'kind of' looks like state funding but isn't really.

At least in NY, there are three things that converge to make trails far, far more expensive than what they were 10 years ago....

1) FwHA minimum trail width standards of 10 feet plus shoulders is wider than most roadbeds, so you're back into environmental permitting to either widen the roadbed or excavate it down to a wider level. No more trails the width of ties and just dust-compact the ballast. Oh, and for an accessible trail with 25mph bikes, add guardrail.
2) Tie disposal regs by state - NY is particularly tough that you have to dispose of all ties - relays can only be sold to a railroad, no retail sales, everything else to a landfill as there are very few cogen facilities that can grind and burn ties. We're figuring $7-10 per dead tie depending on transportation costs to a landfill.
3) Scrap market for rail is down significantly from some prior estimates of trail construction. For all intents and purposes, anything much lighter than 115# doesn't have much of a domestic relay market, so even if in 'ok' shape, may only command reroll or scrap price. Won't pay for the trail.

But, the 'big money' for trails is still there, just don't be shocked by 'how much???'

That's one of the major reasons why I've been advocating rails-with-trails using local or true state funding, because you don't hit a lot of the truly, truly expensive design standard issues that turn it into a giant conflict between everybody. If you really tunnel into the underlying issues here, what turns trail people against rail in many cases is the funding and design restrictions that they are given with the 'gift' of federal money. I've even had state trails people complain to me privately about how miserable it makes their job, even without rail complications.


Last edited by Randy Gustafson on Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:14 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:06 am
Posts: 11
If it weren't for the Va Creeper Trail, a big chunk of South west VA would be totally dead today. NC was stupid for letting its part of that rail line slip through its hands.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:41 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:15 am
Posts: 460
Randy,

The Rail Materials places (A&K, Brown, etc...) don't want anything with a date stamp earlier than 1975, which means most of the rail would have to be cut into 2-3 foot lengths (or smaller) and recycled as Virgin Steel (for best price). Only places that would take the older rail would be a compatable shortline or Museum operation.

Rich C.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:00 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 463
Another update, saying that the Judge still has not ruled:
Quote:
No time frame has been set to resolve a lawsuit against the state over a proposed rail trail.

“The decision remains, sub judice, or still before the court,” Franklin County Clerk Kip Cassavaw wrote in an email Wednesday.

The lawsuit was filed more than a year ago by the Adirondack Rail Preservation Society, which operates seasonal tourist trains under the Adirondack Scenic Railroad name.

Link to the full article in the August 10, 2017 Adirondack Daily Enterprise: No time frame for decision on rail-trail lawsuit


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:59 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 463
The latest Adirondack BANANA (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything) news:
Quote:
SARANAC LAKE — The Lake Clear Association says it’s concerned about the state Department of Environmental Conservation’s plan to increase access to the lake through the draft Saranac Lakes Wild Forest Unit Management Plan.

The group, which is made up of Lake Clear homeowners, is also worried about potential impacts from the state’s proposed recreational trail along the Adirondack railroad corridor.

“We don’t want any more public access to the lake, and I think we have some pretty good reasons for that,” association President Peter Lanahan said during a Thursday presentation to the Harrietstown Town Council.
and
Quote:
At some point, the rail trail is or is not going to happen,” Lanahan added. “It presents a lot of management issues if it does occur — not only the access but the parking, the risk of invasive species with people bringing in boats over the rail trail possibly.

“Our point is, we’re going a little too fast here. Let’s take the resources we have and make certain the rail trail is known and understood, and get some management experience there, and don’t undertake these other proposals in isolation from that.”

Denise Williams of the Girl Scouts’ Lake Clear Camp said she’s concerned about the safety of her campers with the proposals for additional access.

“Right now we’re sort of in our own little secluded area,” she said. As that bike trail gets added in and that camping area gets added in, now I have more people that are backed up right against where my girls are. We also have a sailing program on the lake, and we’re looking to put back a scuba program. We also do a ‘Seahorse Swim’ that goes to the beach and back. Without a horsepower (limit) and some natural barriers, we’re going to have to eliminate those as we start to add access. It’s dangerous to our girls.”

“We’re not saying we don’t share the lake with the public,” Lanahan said. “We’re just saying we have to manage the risks.”

Link to the full article, in the August 12, 2017 Adirondack Daily Enterprise:
Lake Clear group opposes increased access


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:29 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 463
The August 23, 2017 Adirondack Daily Enterprise reported on the Adirondack Scenic's purchase of two coaches from Norfolk Southern:
Quote:
UTICA — The Adirondack Scenic Railroad bought two used passenger cars last week, saying the purchase demonstrates “that the rail operation will continue to grow.”

The nonprofit corporation announced Tuesday that it bought the cars from the Norfolk Southern railroad company at an auction Thursday, Aug. 17 in Roanoke, Virginia. ASR said a state grant helped finance the purchase. ASR did not immediately say how much it paid for the cars or how much the grant covered.

Link to the full article: Railroad buys 2 more cars, pledges to grow


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:41 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 463
A lengthy September 9, 2017 article on NewYorkUpstate.com:
$23 million Adirondack 'Rails to Trails' plan still on hold thanks to lawsuit


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:00 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 463
The Times-Telegram, a newspaper in the Mohawk Valley, covered an American Association of Private Railroad Car Owners move over the railroad:
Quote:
UTICA — Spectators will notice a very unique train making its way out of Utica and through the Adirondack Park this week.

Twenty privately owned vintage rail cars, pulled by Amtrak locomotives, will travel along the Adirondack Scenic Railroad to Old Forge on Thursday, Sept. 14.

There are a wide variety of cars on this trip ranging from domes and lounges to round end observation, business and sleeper cars, with the age extending from 1911 to the 1950s.

The owners are as diverse as the cars; from retired railroaders to business owners, but all sharing a commitment to preserving railroad history. Many of the car owners travel the country to remote locations, only accessible by rail car.


Link to the full article, dated September 12, 2017: Vintage rail cars, Amtrak locomotives run on Adirondack Scenic Railroad


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:37 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:46 pm
Posts: 244
Readers are upset with the mayor of Lake Placid:

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.co ... ic-safety/

Rails, trails, electricity and public safety

LETTERS TO THE EDITOR
SEP 27, 2017

To the editor:

The latest concern that Mayor Randall expressed concerning the rails is such hogwash! The 115KV power lines were installed for the 1980 Olympics, and the rails were there...

and...

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.co ... out-rails/

Placid mayor is disingenuous about rails

LETTERS TO THE EDITOR
SEP 26, 2017

To the editor:

I write to comment regarding the article published Sept. 23 and written by Antonio Olivero regarding the Lake Placid power line.

Mayor Randall’s comments are disingenuous … in a word...


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:39 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:46 pm
Posts: 244
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.co ... ith-trail/

Judge sides with railroad, annuls state plan to replace tracks with trail
SEP 27, 2017
by JUSTIN A. LEVINE
Staff Writer
jlevine@adirondackdailyenterprise.com

MALONE — A judge sided today with the Adirondack Railway Preservation Society, ruling in favor of the group’s lawsuit against the state replacing tracks with a multi-use trail between Lake Placid and Tupper Lake.

In an order filed today, acting state Supreme Court Justice Robert Main Jr. found that state agencies’ decision to remove the tracks was arbitrary and capricious, as argued by ARPS, which does business as the Adirondack Scenic Railroad. The judge found that removing railroad infrastructure to construct a trail would effectively remove Segment 2 from Remsen-Lake Placid Travel Corridor designation; therefore, such a use could not be allowed in a unit management plan for the travel corridor...


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:45 pm 

Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 611
Location: Bucks County, PA
The Railroad WINS! The Railroad WINS!

WOW!! To all other rail vs. trail battles - don't give up hope!

_________________
Big Jim Video Productions
Morrisville, PA

http://www.bigjimvideo.com/home.html
http://www.youtube.com/user/bigjim4life


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:50 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:07 pm
Posts: 965
Location: Leicester, MA.
bigjim4life wrote:
The Railroad WINS! The Railroad WINS!

WOW!! To all other rail vs. trail battles - don't give up hope!

Well I'd hate to douse a perfectly good celebration, but just because they can't remove the rails now doesn't mean that New York is going to let anyone, whether Adirondack Scenic or someone else, use them...

_________________
Dylan M. Lambert


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:48 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:55 pm
Posts: 687
Location: Warren, PA
I'm heartened by the inclusion of the statement that the 'mitigation' of the line status under National Historic Register protection status was not accepted by the Judge, either.

That's a major, precedent-setting issue here. It doesn't mean you have to run it, remember, it just means you can't use taxpayer money to tear it up without an approved mitigation. Apparently pictures of what it used to look like along the trail are not adequate, and that's what we've been screaming for months.

After all the screaming and shouting is done, I'm really hoping that once again, cooler heads look at the rail-with-trail option particularly on the north end. That got very little public participation, closed meetings, DEP basically said 'no' without a whole lot of detailed explanation, and immediately moved on to trail only. If you go to a recreational-trail design instead of an accessible trail 14' edge-to-edge footprint with guardrails and setback, a lot of compromise could be found. A significant number of residents just do not understand why this approach can't be done. Trail factions aren't any more likely to give up than rails, and the real enemy here is the inability to work through design and funding standards that allow both in the corridor.


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 Post subject: Re: Adirondack Park Agency oks scrapping RR line to Lake Pla
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:20 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:50 pm
Posts: 367
This is just about the best rail preservation news to come out of NY state in a long, long time. Kudos to the Adirondack Scenic RR for their perseverance in this matter. Randy, if this all holds up, this should now preserve the entire corridor all the way to Lake Placid? Is there any risk of the planned restoration from Big Moose up to Tupper Lake now getting rescinded? NYSDOT actually issued a big package this winter for that section of track for ties, rail, ballast and surfacing but then cancelled it a couple weeks before the bids were due.

Rob Gardner


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