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 Post subject: The Hidden Cost of Mainline Steam (U.K. Version)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:44 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 9485
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Or. "Why We Can't Have Nice Things":

http://www.fenlandcitizen.co.uk/news/bu ... -1-7263885

Quote:
Trespassers on the railway tracks during the Flying Scotsman’s visit to Peterborough cost rail companies almost £60,000.

On Saturday (12 March) the Scotsman starts an eight day tour of the North Yorkshire Moors Railway (NYMR) at Grosmont, with Network Rail, British Transport Police and the NYMR warning those who are planning a visit to see the Scotsman about the dangers of straying onto the tracks. . . .

Photographs shared online show crowds of people, including young children, stood in the path of oncoming trains with their view obscured by plumes of steam and smoke from the Flying Scotsman.

All trains on the East Coast Main Line had to be stopped as a result, causing a combined total of over eight hours of delays (516 minutes) to 59 train services, costing the railway almost £60,000 in compensation.

Emrys Warriner, head of route safety and environment at Network Rail, said: “While the turnout to see the Flying Scotsman showed the passion and support for steam engines, and indeed for the railway itself, the images of people stood on the railway taking photographs were deeply worrying."


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 Post subject: Re: The Hidden Cost of Mainline Steam (U.K. Version)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:30 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:43 am
Posts: 626
the solution is quite simple. we just need to run mainline steam often enough, so that the steam-starved public doesn't feel compelled to swarm the railway station like a pack of mindless zombies hitting the last brains truck in the world.


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 Post subject: Re: The Hidden Cost of Mainline Steam (U.K. Version)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:01 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 1262
Quote:
:he solution is quite simple. we just need to run mainline steam often enough, so that the steam-starved public doesn't feel compelled to swarm the railway station like a pack of mindless zombies hitting the last brains truck in the world."


Problem is that for almost any financially-feasible number of steam runs, the initial result would be analogous to providing free trucks full of brains on a regular schedule.

Imagine the result of this event on CSX people (or others) who might have been inclined to start relaxing their restriction on steam...

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 Post subject: Re: The Hidden Cost of Mainline Steam (U.K. Version)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:35 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5740
Location: southeastern USA
Why not simply offer blanket indemnity for running idiots over during such events, with no need to stop trains or delay others and cleanups at convenient times after the trespasser squashing? Little by little we'll improve the average intellectual quality in the herd.......which is no small thing.

Certainly hiring some additional security people to show up ahead of the train to keep the track clear isn't too much to include in the operating budget.

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 Post subject: Re: The Hidden Cost of Mainline Steam (U.K. Version)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:58 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 1024
Dave wrote:
Why not simply offer blanket indemnity for running idiots over during such events, with no need to stop trains or delay others and cleanups at convenient times after the trespasser squashing? Little by little we'll improve the average intellectual quality in the herd.......which is no small thing.

Certainly hiring some additional security people to show up ahead of the train to keep the track clear isn't too much to include in the operating budget.


How about video monitors with continuous loops of pedestrian catastrophes at every photo location, such as that idiot who almost was creamed by a UP stack train while standing in the gauge photographing the Big Boy on the other track, or the horrible incident in the Chicago area involving a BN E-9 at a suburban station. You could dub in upbeat music, run the tape forward and reverse with slide whistles as it hits her, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: The Hidden Cost of Mainline Steam (U.K. Version)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:14 pm 

Taking this into consideration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8ZDXCd59-U

I'd say the railway companies have a legitimate worry.


  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Hidden Cost of Mainline Steam (U.K. Version)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:43 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5740
Location: southeastern USA
Whatever it takes to demonstrate to people that there are consequences to their unwise actions, and that they are singularly responsible for them. I've lost patience with media reports about dumb things people do that kills them as tragedies, when they could be used as object lessons by expressing the as dumbass things nobody should do instead. A schlemiel is a guy who spills his soup - he's not a victim. A schlemozzel is a guy who gets the soup spilled on him - he's a victim. Let's not confuse the two.

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Corollary: "He who does is doomed to watch those who don't repeat it anyway."


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 Post subject: Re: The Hidden Cost of Mainline Steam (U.K. Version)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:19 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:07 pm
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Location: Utah
PMC wrote:
How about video monitors with continuous loops of pedestrian catastrophes at every photo location, such as that idiot who almost was creamed by a UP stack train while standing in the gauge photographing the Big Boy on the other track, or the horrible incident in the Chicago area involving a BN E-9 at a suburban station. You could dub in upbeat music, run the tape forward and reverse with slide whistles as it hits her, etc.


The National Park Service employs this tactic at Yellowstone, continuously playing videos of past bison gorings, bear maulings and elk tramplings in all the major visitors centers. It's bloody, it's shocking, it's terrifying, and it doesn't work.

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 Post subject: Re: The Hidden Cost of Mainline Steam (U.K. Version)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:18 am 

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:28 am
Posts: 370
Location: Ipswich, UK
boilerwash wrote:
Taking this into consideration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8ZDXCd59-U

I'd say the railway companies have a legitimate worry.


This particular one, at Thurston, about 20 miles from where I live, received quite a lot of attention over here at the time, but the lessons don't seem to have been learned.

The link between the Bury St Edmunds bound platform (which he was "on") and the Ipswich platform is by a boarded foot crossing "protected" by warning lights.Everyone was looking at the steam train and not thinking of the possbility of something else coming up behind them at up to 70 mph or so.

Don't forget, railways in the UK have been fenced in more or less from day one (by law), so access points are more or less limited to grade crossings for both motor and pedestrian traffic. These were mainly the locations of problems experienced on the recent Flying Scotsman run, in particular there still being a couple of foot crossings over the East Coast line - a wide 4 track area - south of Huntingdon - where trains run up to 125 mph.

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 Post subject: Re: The Hidden Cost of Mainline Steam (U.K. Version)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:17 am 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 1262
Not much difference between this and the deaths of those people during operation of RFK's funeral train. Or in a different sense the 'problems texting while driving (and now, it seems, walking). When foreground attention is directed on something, both background awareness and 'common sense' can be compromised.

Unfortunately, just as with the 'red mist' the precise time people should be worrying about this is precisely the time they'd be distracted...

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 Post subject: Re: The Hidden Cost of Mainline Steam (U.K. Version)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:44 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:34 pm
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Quote:
A schlemiel is a guy who spills his soup - he's not a victim. A schlemozzel is a guy who gets the soup spilled on him


I always wondered what those words meant. Remember the opening to "Laverne and Shirley"?

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 Post subject: Re: The Hidden Cost of Mainline Steam (U.K. Version)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:58 am 

Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:53 pm
Posts: 347
Location: Casa Grande, Arizona USA
Pegasuspinto wrote:
the solution is quite simple. we just need to run mainline steam often enough, so that the steam-starved public doesn't feel compelled to swarm the railway station like a pack of mindless zombies hitting the last brains truck in the world.



The British run main line steam about 4 times a week......in a 150 mile radius of the country center.


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 Post subject: Re: The Hidden Cost of Mainline Steam (U.K. Version)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:20 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3672
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Trevor Heath wrote:
Pegasuspinto wrote:
the solution is quite simple. we just need to run mainline steam often enough, so that the steam-starved public doesn't feel compelled to swarm the railway station like a pack of mindless zombies hitting the last brains truck in the world.



The British run main line steam about 4 times a week......in a 150 mile radius of the country center.


In fairness to Trevor and Pegasuspinto, regular steam operation does seem to cut down on the strong fanatic experience, though that argument may be undercut when something as iconic as LNER 4472 is around--in other words, a couple of Black Fives wouldn't draw quite so much reaction as Gresley's three-cylinder 4-6-2.

In regard to management attitudes here, I do think there is an unreasonable fear of risk involved with running passenger trains and steam excursions. After all, you don't need to run such trains to have dumb people place themselves in danger, and sometimes paying the price:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMRlanye5Nw

On top of that, the railroads handle some pretty nasty freight loads, some of which have been known to create spectacular and expensive fireworks when there is a derailment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-M%C3% ... l_disaster

Thankfully there hasn't been anything quite like this since then, but there have been other incidents, some spectacular, and now a tank train is often considered a "bomb train," with considerable negative publicity. Yet in spite of this proven risk, and the bit of a black eye the railroads get when running such shipments, the industry hasn't refused to handle such loads. This is particularly noticeable when there have been stories going around that the tank cars at LeMegantic may have not been properly placarded.

I think a lot of the reluctance of railroads to handle excursions, at least when citing liability concerns, is akin to the people who are deathly afraid of lightning storms--but are willing to get into an automobile with no concern at all--and that includes no concern for where they are going, because they are yakking on one of those !!&@^#%$!!! telephones instead paying attention to their driving!


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 Post subject: Re: The Hidden Cost of Mainline Steam (U.K. Version)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 2:09 am 

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 258
J3a-614 wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-M%C3% ... l_disaster

Thankfully there hasn't been anything quite like this since then, but there have been other incidents, some spectacular, and now a tank train is often considered a "bomb train," with considerable negative publicity. Yet in spite of this proven risk, and the bit of a black eye the railroads get when running such shipments, the industry hasn't refused to handle such loads. This is particularly noticeable when there have been stories going around that the tank cars at LeMegantic may have not been properly placarded.


Under common carrier rules the railroads do not have the option of saying "We don't want to haul that." If they did, TIH/PIH traffic would have gone away years ago. Chlorine and other TIH loads are much more dangerous than an oil train.

The tank cars in the Lac-Mégantic disaster were not properly placarded for the commodity inside. This is a failure of the shipper not the railroad. It is up to the shipper to provide the required documents to the railroad which includes the material's classification and emergency response guidelines for the particular commodity.

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 Post subject: Re: The Hidden Cost of Mainline Steam (U.K. Version)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:50 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:02 pm
Posts: 1247
Location: Back in NE Ohio
Some of those near-miss clips could be put right into a Hollywood action movie, especially the guy running right in-front of the European freight train like he was just barely ahead of a group of assassins! What a bunch of idiots.


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