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 Post subject: LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman Tour Route 1969-1973
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:35 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8913
Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
I have been asked to compile as accurate an itinerary and "route map" as I can of the tour of my "namesake" locomotive, London & North Eastern Ry. 4-6-2 4472, Flying Scotsman, on its North American tour in 1969-1973.

This turns out to be an abominably difficult proposition.

I have been able to confirm most of the autumn 1969 movements from Boston to Houston.

1970 was supposed to have 4472 and train leave from Slaton, Tx. in April to Green Bay, Wisc. by way of New Mexico, L.A., Portland, Vancouver, and across Canada. Instead, it went in late June and July from Texas to Green Bay by way of Oklahoma, St. Louis, and Chicago, spending a week on display at Dearborn Station July 4-11, then C&NW to Green Bay. Leaving Green Bay Aug. 15th-ish after a month there, it went to Detroit and then across eastern Canada and back to Toronto, where it spent the winter. Most of Canada I have down, but it gets hazy north of Texas to Chicago, and I have no idea how it got from Green Bay to Detroit.

1971: It went (when?!?) from winter storage in Toronto's Spadina roundhouse to Buffalo, then apparently west over the NKP, and the next confirmed sighting I have is Chester, Montana Sept. 12th, working its way west to San Francisco, and I can trace its route most of the way there.

The problem I have uncovered is that most of the people who were directly involved with the mission have passed away, and they typically barely had any idea where they were day to day, being in a foreign land on someone else's railroad pre-internet/GPS/cell phones. They also ended up varying quite a bit from previously announced schedules, done in by anything from railroad dispatching to sub-par "coal". Further, many photos have proven to have been erroneously dated--in a couple cases, as far as the wrong year! Even the National Railway Museum (U.K.) and the numerous books published on this loco have little to no details on the junket--I sense it falls under the category of repressed memories of nightmares!

If anyone has access to or can point me to further documentation on this junket, I would be most appreciative. PM or e-mail me, or discuss here as appropriate.


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 Post subject: Re: LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman Tour Route 1969-1973
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:26 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:16 am
Posts: 468
Location: Northern Illinois
Going through my slide collection I can supply you with these dates and locations:

My parents encountered 4472 at Atlanta, GA, on October 30, 1969.

I have night shots that I took at Dearborn Street Station in Chicago on July 12, 1970.

My next sighting was at the National Railroad Museum in Green Bay on August 9, 1970.

A couple of friends and I intercepted her southbound on the C&NW "freight" line at Waxdale, WI (east of Sturtevant) and followed her to the Northwestern's 40th St Yard in Chicago on the night of August 17-18, 1970.

Maybe this will help you fill in some of the "holes" in your coverage.

Don C.


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 Post subject: Re: LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman Tour Route 1969-1973
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:28 am 

Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:00 am
Posts: 526
Location: Dallas ,Texas. USA
I saw it in Dallas at Union Station, prior to mid 1970.
It could have been 68, 69, or 70.

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 Post subject: Re: LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman Tour Route 1969-1973
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:14 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2226
I remember chasing it as a kid when it ran on the NKP, I might have film or maybe pics.

We knew it was touring around in the states so we made haste to catch it.

Maybe some old trains magazine or railroads mag has some data, tried the Trains magazine index?


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 Post subject: Re: LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman Tour Route 1969-1973
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:22 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8913
Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
Before you waste the keystrokes:

Yes, I've already gone through the back issues of Trains, Railroad Magazine, etc. A lot of what got listed there was either rendered inaccurate (I have the entire 1970 itinerary plan, which proved to be a delusion of ink) or somewhat vague (photos without dates or exact locations). Souvenirs of the tour don't list dates either.

I need SPECIFIC dates and locations. Preferably on the 1971 "Hail Mary" last-ditch run for San Francisco's British Week.

Remember, just as another example, the American Freedom Train was supposed to be in Philadelphia for the actual July 4, 1976 Bicentennial, but instead was at New Cumberland Army Depot near Harrisburg, Pa. because of adjustments to the tour as it happened.

What I need are more detailed accounts, newspaper articles, etc. or the like, such as Don C's above. As another example, Brother Payne mentioned in another forum (as does "dinwitty" above) that he and his fellow NKP fans saw and chased it headed west on the former Nickel Plate in "1970." The preponderance of the evidence shows he got the year wrong (it was 1971), but the Nickel Plate tells me at least part of the route west to San Francisco from Buffalo, which was pretty much an unpublicized run........


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 Post subject: Re: LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman Tour Route 1969-1973
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:09 am 

Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:22 am
Posts: 491
San Francisco 06-18-1972


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 Post subject: Re: LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman Tour Route 1969-1973
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:30 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 2:46 pm
Posts: 556
Location: St. Louis, MO
I rode two trips behind #4472 while it was in San Francisco on March 18 and April 2, 1972, starting from Pier 38 on the San Francisco Belt RR. One went to Aquatic Park and the other to the Fisherman's Wharf station.

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 Post subject: Re: LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman Tour Route 1969-1973
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:11 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:50 pm
Posts: 96
The January 1971 issue of "Railway World" has an article by Robin Russell - "On Tour with Flying Scotsman" which relates the author's experience of working as a visitor guide on the train for a few days in 1970.

He joined the loco and train at Kansas City Union Station on Saturday June 27 where the loco and train were apparently already on "show" after his overnight train journey from Toronto.

Monday June 29 was the last day on display there and the loco and train were towed around a "wye" that evening to be ready for departure.

Tueaday June 30 the train departed for St Louis travelling via Mexico - actuating several Axle Box Detectors en route. They arrived in St Louis after dark that evening.

The train was on display in St Louis for several days - departing for Chicago Dearborn via Decatur on Tuesday July 7 arriving there later the same day. The writer returned to Toronto the following day.

Traincrew working the loco are stated to have been: Chief Inspector Les Richards (York), Fitter Harry Mason (Doncaster), Drivers Nat Gould, Arthur Houghton and Gordon Pugh (all Doncaster), Firemen Bill Brand (Haymarket) and Alan Wappat (Tyne Yard).

The article is illustrated by phots of and from the loco and of various members of the train crew.


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 Post subject: Re: LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman Tour Route 1969-1973
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:25 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2226
the mag index doesnt do advertisements so wont search that.


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 Post subject: LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman Tour Route 1969-1973
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:33 pm 

Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:16 pm
Posts: 82
It stopped in Parsons Kansas northbound on the Katy.... June 1970 for sure.... the printed guide they handed out said it was the 22nd.... not for sure that stood up... I was standing out front of the passenger station watching it arrive...


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Last edited by Bad Order on Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman Tour Route 1969-1973
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:35 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8913
Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
Thanks, Jim--it only adds detail for KC-Chicago, but every little bit helps!

(I wonder if my Railway Mags and Railway Worlds go back far enough......)


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 Post subject: Re: LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman Tour Route 1969-1973
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:04 am 

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:28 am
Posts: 272
Location: Suffolk, UK
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
Thanks, Jim--it only adds detail for KC-Chicago, but every little bit helps!

(I wonder if my Railway Mags and Railway Worlds go back far enough......)


I've certainly got the RM's covering that period, just in case you haven't, so will have a look at them over the weekend.
Think the RW copies of that time (if I had them) were cleared out in a "magazine cull" in the last couple of years!

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 Post subject: Re: LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman Tour Route 1969-1973
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:19 am 

Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:33 pm
Posts: 314
Location: Oroville, CA
I can't give you the dates, but some clues maybe. The engine spent some time (months?) in the WP Roundhouse in Oroville, under the care of Solano Railcar. This was shortly before the roundhouse burned down (very shortly, a month maybe?). Sam Girdler, the Solano Railcar president often commented to me how he had dodged a bullet when that happened--it would have been real tragedy if it had been in the roundhouse. As it was, some historical passenger cars were lost. Think the fire was caused by an electrical short. I don't know if any work was being done on the locomotive.

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 Post subject: Re: LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman Tour Route 1969-1973
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:12 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2226
Trains has everything on DVD now. I have mags in that period here it will take some browsing.


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 Post subject: Re: LNER 4472 Flying Scotsman Tour Route 1969-1973
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:46 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8913
Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
dinwitty wrote:
Trains has everything on DVD now. I have mags in that period here it will take some browsing.

Do you take me to be a lazy bum that doesn't do his own work?

As I have already noted, I have laboriously pored through the back numbers of Trains, Railroad Magazine, and even Rail Classics, to find little of use after the original publicity blast of 1969. I even have a separate file of the original magazines with features on it (about two). Railpace, Rails Northeast, etc. didn't exist at the time, and about the only other hope might be the earliest issues of CTC Board which our library doesn't have.


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