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 Post subject: Re: Steam Locomotive Found in Lake Superior
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:35 pm 

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Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
[searches Facebook for the inevitable "Fire Up 694!" page..............]


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 Post subject: Re: Steam Locomotive Found in Lake Superior
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:42 am 

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:38 pm
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Also interesting is the brake valve on the backhead. The handle still shows a bronze color and is perfectly clean while the steel parts of the valve are completely covered in growth.

If that is definitely the case, the bell would be that much easier to find since it wouldnt be disguised as a different object due to growth....of course it still has to be found though!

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 Post subject: Re: Steam Locomotive Found in Lake Superior
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:04 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
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Location: Northern Illinois
I wonder how deep the lake is at that point? It sounds like the engine is laying on a talus slope at the base of a cliff, with no indication how far down it goes. The article says the engine is about 250' down. I'm no expert on diving, but that sounds like it's pretty much the limit for scuba diving. The bell may have fallen considerably deeper; IIRC some portions of Lake Superior are 1000' deep. I wonder if the guy with the ROV is going to be doing more exploring on this wreck?

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 Post subject: Re: Steam Locomotive Found in Lake Superior
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:37 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 4145
Location: Maine
I'm going to go out on a limb and say, not a great candidate for operational restoration(?)!

Lots of identifiable parts and conclusions to be drawn from the wreckage. Besides a deepwater robotic camera, there was at least on diver on the wreckage. That's a pretty good feat considering the locomotive is at a depth similar to the "Andrea Doria", and probably in colder water.

I would like to see the wreckage mapped out in archaeological fashion, compass points, relationship to the surround rock formations.

Immediately, my thoughts turned to the 2-8-0 in 600 feet of fresh water, out in British Columbia. Wondering what it looks like in comparison?

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 Post subject: Re: Steam Locomotive Found in Lake Superior
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:26 am 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
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Richard Glueck wrote:
I would like to see the wreckage mapped out in archaeological fashion, compass points, relationship to the surround rock formations.

Immediately, my thoughts turned to the 2-8-0 in 600 feet of fresh water, out in British Columbia. Wondering what it looks like in comparison?


I think that the archaeological mapping would be a great idea. There are probably several freight cars and their contents down there with the engine, thus producing a very mechanically complex display of wreckage.

Mapping would provide a perfect 3D cad model to study this wreckage from any and all perspectives. It could also include direct photographs. Considering that the water is relatively clear, and the wreckage is strewn on a hard rock bottom, rather that sunken into organic mud; it would make an ideal mapping site to capture the effect of that very serious historical wreck.

I know that there are always thoughts of salvage, recovery of parts or all of the locomotive, but I think this capture of the site by imaging would be greatest form of recovery.

Maybe recovering one artifact as symbolic attribute to the memory of the lost crewmembers would be fitting. I suspect that if the bell were found, it would show considerable damage from being torn out of its mount. But that would give it great character as a symbol of the trauma of the wreck.

The underwater ROVs and the scanning and mapping software are recent developments that open up a lot of new opportunities for exploring underwater wrecks. There is a lot of history on the bottom of the Great Lakes.

I agree that the 2-8-0 lost in the B.C. lake would also be an ideal candidate for such ROV exploration.


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 Post subject: Re: Steam Locomotive Found in Lake Superior
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:01 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:05 pm
Posts: 882
Which 2-8-0 in which BC Lake? I know of four:

2-8-0 Canadian National Ry #2727
Hit rockslide and went into Kamloops Lake 01-14-34
2-8-0 Canadian Pacific Ry #3512
Lost off of barge into Slocan Lake 1947
2-8-0 Pacific Great Eastern Ry #53
Hit rockslide and went into Seton Lake 01-23-50
2-8-0 Pacific Great Eastern Ry #56
Hit rockslide and went into Anderson Lake 08-02-44


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 Post subject: Re: Steam Locomotive Found in Lake Superior
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:41 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:18 pm
Posts: 78
Dennis Storzek wrote:
I wonder how deep the lake is at that point? It sounds like the engine is laying on a talus slope at the base of a cliff, with no indication how far down it goes. The article says the engine is about 250' down. I'm no expert on diving, but that sounds like it's pretty much the limit for scuba diving. The bell may have fallen considerably deeper; IIRC some portions of Lake Superior are 1000' deep. I wonder if the guy with the ROV is going to be doing more exploring on this wreck?

250 feet is certainly beyond standard recreational single cylinder divers, however 250 is the playground of the well trained and equipped technical diver. I have done dives to this depth many times with my max depth currently sitting at 313 feet (in a cave). for the record, the open circuit (standard scuba) depth record is currently beyond 1000 feet. No one knows what the real closed circuit (rebreather) record is because that belongs to the military and is classified. Comex conducted commercial surface supplied tethered dives to 1752 feet in 1988.

Both the videos I have seen of this wreck were shot by divers, not ROV. They may have found it with ROV, but divers have clearly been on the wreck. For anyone interested, just down the road from the locomotive there is another wreck in 285 feet of water called Gunilda. If you want your mind blown, look it up on YouTube.

Also, someone asked what water temps are down there. You can expect 33-42 degrees F year round.

I have a goal to dive the locomotive next summer. I have met one of the divers involved, so I'm fairly I can get there. I hope to bridge the gap a bit better between the diving community and our steam railroad crowd.

I'm of the opinion that the bell would lay in shallow water. If the engine rolled over soon after leaving the tracks it would have broken off then and I believe could be found by leaving the wreck at depth and doing a search pattern while ascending to the shore. I believe it will be found in 100 feet or less of water very close to shore.


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 Post subject: Re: Steam Locomotive Found in Lake Superior
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:52 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
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Location: Maine
2-8-0 Canadian Pacific Ry #3512
Lost off of barge into Slocan Lake 1947

600 feet down, in total darkness, cold water. Fascinating wreck for research!

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 Post subject: Re: Steam Locomotive Found in Lake Superior
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:21 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 4145
Location: Maine
Not to change the thread, but if I didn't post this before, check out the B&M Pacific #3666, in the Piscataquis River, near Kittery, Maine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNb8FvbdfDE

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 Post subject: Re: Steam Locomotive Found in Lake Superior
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:45 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:07 am
Posts: 577
This has now made the downstate (MI) news

see

http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/201 ... river_home

Some key points -- the diver thinks the damage is beyond repair (though given enough money and time.....)

and one photo shows the boat they used and the location

Also, radio station WTCM (Traverse City) has picked up the story and says they did use an ROV and it only took an hour to find the wreck. This was the same team of divers that found the Nashes.

Bob H


Last edited by Heavenrich on Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:35 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Steam Locomotive Found in Lake Superior
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:05 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
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Location: Northern Illinois
That link also contains a link to a story about the SS Senator, a carferry that sank in 1929 with a full load of new Nash automobiles:

http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2016/05/senator_shipwreck_nash_motors.html

Unfortunately, no photos inside the wreck. This wreck was mentioned in a TV program a couple years ago which DID have some video showing the railroad cars inside the cavernous car deck, with autos visible inside one car where the boxcar door was jostled open during the sinking. Another case of potential cold freshwater preservation.

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 Post subject: Re: Autos Found in Lake Michigan Car Ferry
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:07 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:01 pm
Posts: 1503
Location: SouthEast Pennsylvania
The "Senator" was a freighter with autos as cargo. The photos of autos in a boxcar must be in the Grand Trunk RR's carferry "Milwaukee", which sank nearby 9 days earlier. It is only 130 feet deep.


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 Post subject: Re: Autos Found in Lake Michigan Car Ferry
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:30 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:07 am
Posts: 577
JimBoylan wrote:
The "Senator" was a freighter with autos as cargo. The photos of autos in a boxcar must be in the Grand Trunk RR's carferry "Milwaukee", which sank nearby 9 days earlier. It is only 130 feet deep.


One site with details on the "Milwaukee" sinking is

http://shepherdexpress.com/article-2266 ... press.html

a second ferry named Milwaukee has been stuffed and mounted and is in Manistee, Mi.

One of the displays on this ship is the 'tube' mentioned in the link above.

Bob H


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 Post subject: Re: Steam Locomotive Found in Lake Superior
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:06 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2460
Location: Northern Illinois
Oops! You're right. I saw the link and just assumed it was the boat I had seen in the program.

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 Post subject: Re: Steam Locomotive Found in Lake Superior
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:27 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:18 pm
Posts: 78
Divers were back out on the wreck of the 694 yesterday. The group included a former student of mine from here in Columbus. I'm looking forward to speaking with him directly about details of the wreck. They will be searching for the tender next. I found this little flatbed cart interesting. From the amount of light in the photo this cart must be up fairly shallow compared to the wreck which is in the dark.


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