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 Post subject: Power Reverse Gear ID
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:30 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:40 am
Posts: 71
Location: Chama, NM
The FL,WB&S #208 (nee A&NR #208) at the Indiana Railroad Museum has a rather unusual power reverse gear. I could find no names or numbers cast into the air cylinder. There is a patent reference, but no date, on the control valve. I have had no success with RYPN or Google searches.

Anyone know what type this is and have any information on it?

Russ

Attachment:
Reverse Gear 9-15-13.jpg
Reverse Gear 9-15-13.jpg [ 294.18 KiB | Viewed 5032 times ]


View of the control valve. Note the cut off indicator near the floor.
Attachment:
Reverse Gear 9-15-13 1.jpg
Reverse Gear 9-15-13 1.jpg [ 337.89 KiB | Viewed 5032 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: Power Reverse Gear ID
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:25 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:34 pm
Posts: 1917
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Looks home made?

Does not appear to have a self regulating feature. That is, it looks like it would gradually creep away from position, hence the cutoff gauge in the cab.

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 Post subject: Re: Power Reverse Gear ID
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:29 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:58 pm
Posts: 1200
Location: Chicago USA
Did you try a patent number search?

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Power Reverse Gear ID
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:20 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
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Location: southeastern USA
This looks very familiar to me.......I think it was Reader 108 that has the same system, if memory serves. It was described to me at the time as a home installed power reverse retrofit (since the pin on which the Johnson Bar would have been mounted was still on the frame this made sense) so I wonder if it wasn't something that was available through some early railroad-based form of the J. C. Whitney catalog or other aftermarket supplier? As indicated, the air control was shoved forward or backward until the cutoff was at the desired point, then centered to prevent further movement.....or at least desired movement. Leakage and force transferred from the valve gear back to the cylinder could easily have led to creep.

dave

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 Post subject: Re: Power Reverse Gear ID
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:59 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:40 am
Posts: 71
Location: Chama, NM
I mentioned a reference to it being patented but it was that only. No patent number or date that I could find.

I have to wonder if this was someone's better idea that really wasn't or an attempt to get around some patents.

The vertical cylinder is actually a latching mechanism to prevent creep. I would guess that when the operating valve is moved off center it pressurizes the latch cylinder and releases a dog that engages the rack in the bottom of the guide bar. It doesn't appear to be a very precise machine. Taking just one notch would probably require some finesse. Is there anyone here who has run one of these?

Attachment:
Reverse Gear 9-15-13 2.jpg
Reverse Gear 9-15-13 2.jpg [ 280.35 KiB | Viewed 4865 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: Power Reverse Gear ID
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:59 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5078
Russ -

I am not trying to steal your thread here on Power Reverse Gears, but your bringing up Angelina & Neches River 2-6-0 #208 at French Lick, got me to thinking about the engine again. The Mogul is not owned by the Indiana Railway Museum there, but was leased from a museum in Texas. I think that the lease has long expired, but the Texas group has never had the funds, or perhaps a location, to move the locomotive. I just wonder what the current status might be. It seems that the 208 would be a nice locomotive for some museum or tourist railroad. Perhaps someone from the Texas group might chime in with some info.

Thanks.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Power Reverse Gear ID
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:21 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:34 pm
Posts: 1917
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
I am guessing this design was configured to avoid paying a patent fee.

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 Post subject: Re: Power Reverse Gear ID
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:02 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:31 am
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Location: South Carolina
That's actually a pretty ingenious way of doing it, although I can imagine it doesn't work as well as the self-regulating type. Maybe it's just a very early design before somebody worked the self-regulating arrangement out.

It occurs to me it may significantly different to operate that a self-regulating power reverse. With the power reverses most of us are used to, they'll basically only move at one speed which is fairly slow. This thing might work much faster since there's no feedback involved in moving the reverse lever.

You guys should hook compressed air to the thing and try it out. It'd be an interesting experiment.

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 Post subject: Re: Power Reverse Gear ID
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:10 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5078
Dave wrote:
This looks very familiar to me.......I think it was Reader 108 that has the same system, if memory serves. It was described to me at the time as a home installed power reverse retrofit

dave


Dave -

As memory serves me, I believe that Reader #108 was an ex-Angelina & Neches River engine, the same railroad as #208.


Les


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 Post subject: Re: Power Reverse Gear ID
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:10 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:48 am
Posts: 470
Location: Byers, Colorado
Hi Russ, It's been awhile...

Not that I know anything, but that contraption sure looks homebrew to me. The control valve looks an awful lot like the control valves I've seen on MOW equipment, ancient flangers, cranes, pnumatic devices of all kinds. The power cylinder looks like maybe a recycled steam brake cylinder. The vertical gizmo looks like maybe they cobbled that on when the idea didn't work all that great at first... The manual machine shops I've worked at all have the philosophy of recycling junk (from a large supply out back) rather than buying anything new, and that was certainly practiced in many railroad machine shops, especially shortlines. What ever happened to American ingenuity ???

(If you ever hear from Doug & Barb Miller, tell 'em hi for me if you would, please.)

Thank You Kindly,
Sammy

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 Post subject: Re: Power Reverse Gear ID
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:43 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:45 am
Posts: 311
Location: Alaska
If you retard the exhaust, wouldn't that slow down the operating speed?

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 Post subject: Re: Power Reverse Gear ID
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:12 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
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Location: southeastern USA
It could....but I don't see what this has to do with the kitbashed power reverse being discussed here. The valve gear is the same no matter if it is actuated by a power or manual reverse.

dave

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 Post subject: Re: Power Reverse Gear ID
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:54 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:55 am
Posts: 9
Location: Ballarat, Victoria, Australia
Hi

FWIW this is very similar to the steam operated reversing gear fitted to many South African locomotives - the same concept of a three position control lever in the cab - lever vertical to hold position, forward to either increase cutoff in forward gear, or shorten cutoff on reverse gear. Move the lever to full back to do the reverse operations.
The main difference was two cylinders linked together, one for steam to move, the other an oil/water filled locking cylinder to hold the selected reversing gear position. Separate valves for the two cylinders, but linked to the operating handle in the cab
The later locomotives were fitted with Beyer Peacock "Hadfield" patent reversing gear, wheel operated, and much more sensitive with feedback mechanism incorporated. Originally designed for the Garratts, and used on many other locomotives as well in Southern Africa, Australia and elsewhere. Interestingly it works as well on air as it does on steam.

I'll try to find a photo.

Bruce


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 Post subject: Re: Power Reverse Gear ID
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:56 am 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 929
Just in case you don't have a good picture (and putting in a plug for a valuable resource) there is apparently a full set of Hadfield drawings here:

http://www.sarsteam.co.za/index.php

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 Post subject: Re: Power Reverse Gear ID
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:23 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 11:31 pm
Posts: 295
Location: TEXAS
I have talked to some remaining Reader hands about the power reverse on the 108. Anyhow, they all recalled the notched bar on the power reverse. They couldn't recall what was in the cab, exactly. Richard Grigsby said he seemed to remember a "little bitty quadrant...the least you ever saw". He couldn't recall a three position valve.

TWM Long and his shopman, Kim Byrne, were listed in several sources as installing the power reverse on the 108 out of either ex-KCS parts or ex-NdeM stuff...they were known to have gotten parts from both sources.

After having seen this picture of the 108 while it was a stable mate of the 208

http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr0701/anr108.jpg

I wonder if Kim and the boys didn't just adapt a floating valve and quadrant for what was put on by the A&NR shop. I was by Sulphur Springs today, and saw the 108, but since who ever worked on it last reduced the engine to its lowest molecular structures, there was no way to tell what type of power reverse it had on it.

Anyway, I have seen a similar set up by what I recall was an off brand power reverse that had the same three way air valve set up, but the cutoff was controlled by an automatic set up that adjusted cutoff according to back pressure. Unfortunately, I am in the middle of a divorce, and I don't have access to my Cyclopedias.


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