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 Post subject: Traded pictures copyright
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:18 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:34 pm
Posts: 2758
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Back in the day a lot of pictures were copied and sold and traded without any documentation. I have seen many on these forums posting examples from the 1930s 1940s, and they appear for sale on Ebay of course too.

What is the copyright status of these pictures, f.eks. for publication in a book?

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 Post subject: Re: Traded pictures copyright
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:46 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:46 pm
Posts: 135
Usually people just state “From X collection, unknown photographer” to credit them as it would be illegal to claim it as your own photo. Honestly you really shouldn’t have to worry about copyright infringement in cases like this even if you did send a copy to a publisher and a person says “Hey X person took that and your taking credit for it” they would need some pretty hardcore evidence for a photo of a locomotive unless you’ve got something along the lines of an original famous O. Winston Link original. I myself own a very small collection of GTW steam pictures and managed to snag the only original color slide I could find of a GTW 0-6-0 which was in Saginaw Michigan off of eBay still in its original red mount I am however unaware of who took the photo. There is a thread on RYPN called “A Passion for Steam” which takes you to a link about GTW 5629 which have multiple photos stating they are only from the authors collection. I have or at least had screenshots of them on eBay because if I never bought them I would at least have them in some form one way or another so they weren’t lost forever. Given some time and I figured out who had actually bought the slides father I had read the article and saw they had found a good home and to my knowledge there hasn’t been a big deal about them being online or nobody getting credit so I assume it would be safe to have them published but I’m no lawyer so don’t take my word for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Traded pictures copyright
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:01 pm 

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:04 pm
Posts: 314
Copyright laws are murky at best. In order for a photo to be copyrighted you need to register and pay a fee (typically $200.00 per item) for the item to be officially copyrighted. After that you would have the legal protection of copyright law. As you can imagine not too many photographs are legally copyrighted due to the enormous expense. Putting a copyright symbol on your photograph or claiming your photos are copyrighted have no legal standing as there would be no reason for one person to pay $200.00 only to have the same legal rights as someone who didn't pay anything.

That doesn't mean that someone can just print and sell someone else's photographs on Ebay or elsewhere just because they are not registered. You still created the original photograph so it is your property.

Legally if someone else is selling your photographs that you have never copyrighted they have not broken any laws and will not be punished. You can sue them in court but you have to claim damages. If you were both selling the same photos, and you asked the other person to stop selling them because it was your work you might get some money, since you are losing money. However if you were not selling anything it's very hard to claim damages since this person technically isn't taking any money away from you. Even if you win you still have to collect which is a rarity if you succeed in doing that.

It's extremely unlikely anyone who took those old photographs are going to contact you copyrighted or not unless you are using official railroad photographs taken by the railroad. If used in a book credit should always be given to the photographer permission granted or not. You can also make a good effort to try to contact who ever holds these photographs. Also remember the statute of limitations for many crimes is no more than 3 years to prosecute. So if your book can make it three years any lawsuits after that would be null and void anyways.


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 Post subject: Re: Traded pictures copyright
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:26 pm 
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Posts: 238
I have a large collection of slides, negatives, and prints that I sell copy prints of at train shows and on eBay, etc. and reuse in books and articles I write.

Prints are kind of iffy when it comes to getting permission to reuse or sell copies of. The way I do things is that if it's clearly an old (pre-1950) print with no name listed on the back and that I have never seen a copy of elsewhere, I consider it fair game. If it's a pre-1950 print with a name, I look to see if that person is still living. If they are deceased and I have never seen a copy of said image elsewhere, I again consider it fair game. If they are still living, I contact them to get permission. I have a rule that I never use any prints made after 1950.

Slides are a little more difficult. Any slide with stamped/printed words on the mount should always be considered a copyrighted image and a likely duplicate slide, even if it's listed as an original. Slides with handwritten words are usually originals. See the previous paragraph for what I do with slides with names listed.

Negatives are the easiest to deal with and my personal favorite due to an unwritten rule amongst railfans who use(d) negatives. From what I understand, anyone who owns an original negative owns all rights to that negative, no matter what. Sales and trades of original negatives include all rights to the image. I'm not sure when, how, or why that rule came to be, but it's what all of my fellow print vendors at train shows follow so I do the same.

With any image, even if no photographer is listed, it's important to give a proper courtesy line. In books and articles, I say "Photograph by (name or 'unknown photographer'); Author's Collection." For prints I sell, I print text on the back that says the same thing, except I put my name instead of "author."

Hope this helps.

Thomas

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 Post subject: Re: Traded pictures copyright
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:20 am 

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 1773
Location: New Franklin, OH
If the work is determined to be in the public domain, have at it without worry.

Don’t make assumptions that you are free and clear to distribute or profit from copies of someone else’s images because you’ve seen someone else do it. You may be taking money out of someone’s pocket.

Rather than explain it, reference (in the U.S.):
Quick overview: https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ01.pdf
In depth: https://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap3.html

Do your homework and stay out of potential trouble. And if you get permission, get it in writing.

You do not have to register a copyright. However, registering comes in handy if you want to take legal action against an entity infringing on your work. If your photography is not registered with the U.S. Copyright Office prior to an infringement, you may only recover “actual damages” instead of “statutory damages” i.e. you’re only entitled to the “fair market value” of your work, instead of what could be up to a $150,000 award, plus legal fees.

Depending on the final use, sometimes I’ll grant a license for free for a specific use - in writing. I’ll defend my copyrighted work, registered or not. Distribute or use my images or artwork without permission especially to make money, expect that I’ll say “hello” in some fashion.

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 Post subject: Re: Traded pictures copyright
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:59 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:07 pm
Posts: 1114
Location: B'more Maryland
Tom F wrote:
Copyright laws are murky at best. In order for a photo to be copyrighted you need to register and pay a fee (typically $200.00 per item) for the item to be officially copyrighted. After that you would have the legal protection of copyright law. As you can imagine not too many photographs are legally copyrighted due to the enormous expense. Putting a copyright symbol on your photograph or claiming your photos are copyrighted have no legal standing as there would be no reason for one person to pay $200.00 only to have the same legal rights as someone who didn't pay anything.


This is absolutely untrue and incorrect.

https://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap2.html

Quote:
201. Ownership of copyright1
(a) Initial Ownership.—Copyright in a work protected under this title vests initially in the author or authors of the work. The authors of a joint work are coowners of copyright in the work.


This means as soon as you create something, you implicitly own the copyright of it. It doesn't matter if you "register" it or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Traded pictures copyright
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:34 am 

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 1773
Location: New Franklin, OH
Yup. As soon as you click the shutter button, you own the copyright. As soon as I draw a line on a digital canvas and click Save, I own the copyright. See my previous about registration benefits.

There is nothing really murky about copyright law.

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 Post subject: Re: Traded pictures copyright
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:45 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:34 pm
Posts: 2758
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
If the original photographer donated their photo collection to your museum, what do you need to be careful to document?’

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 Post subject: Re: Traded pictures copyright
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:19 am 

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 1773
Location: New Franklin, OH
I don’t trade in images so I’m not absolutely sure but, copyright is transferable. If you received original images as a donation and have paperwork to verify that, I do believe you are now the copyright holder. The original copyright date stays the same, I think. You’d have to read the particulars in the appropriate sections of the copyright law.

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 Post subject: Re: Traded pictures copyright
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:20 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 6399
Location: southeastern USA
That the donation includes the donors copyright or other interests in it, and exactly what those interests are. If the copyright had been also licensed to others, a list as well. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of media with alterations made to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Traded pictures copyright
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:24 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2726
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
1. How old are the photos in question?
2. What jurisdiction are we discussing? US of EU?

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 Post subject: Re: Traded pictures copyright
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:25 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2815
Location: Northern Illinois
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
Quote:
201. Ownership of copyright1
(a) Initial Ownership.—Copyright in a work protected under this title vests initially in the author or authors of the work. The authors of a joint work are coowners of copyright in the work.


This means as soon as you create something, you implicitly own the copyright of it. It doesn't matter if you "register" it or not.


That is the current law, dating to 1978. Works created before 1978, but after 1909, fall under the 1909 law, which required registration to have a valid copyright, with some exceptions. In general, anything published before 1924 is now in the Public Domain, even if it has a copyright notice.

This is a good source for sorting this out:
https://www.copyright.gov/timeline/

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 Post subject: Re: Traded pictures copyright
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:46 pm 

Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:56 pm
Posts: 398
Location: Ontario, Canada.
Museums can be funny entities. A lot of things depend on the student or volunteer who is working there on a given day. I copied a couple of rare images from a local museum of some note a few years ago -- 35mm camera and copy stand. That was done with permission and a user fee. Now, if I look them up, they show on the museum's website but credited to me. So? I guess I am now the copyright holder! Who knew?
I have self-published some books. The writer obtains an ISBN number for a small fee plus a copyright for the title. Also, in the frontispiece, they are marked "All Rights Reserved." There are plenty of photos in them, and I am starting to see some on Facebook, etc.The onus is on me to go after the posters, but I would not expect much satisfaction. I am in no position to finance a court action, especially in another country. About all you can do is notify these people that they are stealing your work. If they are decent folk, they may at least credit you.
The internet threw a bollux into copyright. I have paid for copies plus extra for rights to use photos. Then that institution posts them on its web site in reasonably high resolution. Then every fat-assed kid with a computer nestled in his/her mom's basement in front of the computer can post the hell out of them on every related web forum. My dollars are blown to hell and the photos are no longer unique. Covid exacerbated that with all the fat-asses sitting home, drawing free money, and being on the net 24-7.
In another case, a photo of mine that a magazine printed was used by a large U.S. company in a set of trading cards, without credit to either the magazine or me. The magazine asked if I wanted to take action? I was in Canada so the chances of getting any satisfaction were slim, or action would be too costly for me to pursue. The law may be on my side, but they have a team of lawyers.
I used to post images on a couple of forums. To hell with that now. They show up in the damndest places without credit of any kind.


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 Post subject: Re: Traded pictures copyright
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:27 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:07 pm
Posts: 179
Location: Utah
.

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Last edited by Utah Josh on Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Traded pictures copyright
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:42 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:34 pm
Posts: 2758
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
I realize eu and us law are different, and expect everyone here is referring to us law, but it is good to have a perspective.

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