If tubed, they are good candidates for dinner train service. Dinner trains typically move sub-20 mph due to the need to toll out the time needed for a leisurely dinner, on the limited track available for the service. Also to reduce sways and spills.

And they need HEP and mechanical A/C for power to prepare food (coffee maker etc.) and because eating dinner in 90 degree open window cars with bugs on your food, would suck.

Hi,



Not to mention crunchy cinders if the train is steam powered.

I've come off of many a mainline or tourist railroad with cinders deep in my hair.

Doug vV

From time to time I get invitations to bid on parts and equipment from Amtrak. I recall recently seeing a note that equipment being auctioned off is not to be used in any sort of rail service, or something similar. Anyone else see this, is my memory failing?

I have seen the same language, EDM, which begs the question of enforcement.

Have also seen that language in various PRIIA documents.

Dave

I have to wonder why they would do that? Are they worried somebody is going to get into competition with them? That's not real likely.

It would also seem to decrease the value of equipment, since if you can't use them in rail service, about all you can do is scrap them (or maybe use one or two for a stationary diner).

I see lots of government agencies selling surplus equipment but don't recall seeing things like an auto auction that prohibits you from driving the car you buy.

That stuff never seems to never be legally binding.

Has happened on the Great Lakes before when a carrier sells a retired freighter for something like grain storage and suddenly there's demand for additional hulls when the economy is on the upswing and the ship is resold by the elevator or whoever the buyer was, to another fleet for operation.

Seen companies like Canada Steamship Lines argue in court about the clause in the contract forbidding such actions, never succeeding to win their cause. So Great Lakes fleets sometimes reportedly cripple retired vessels these days by deliberately causing engine damage like sending sand through the turbines if she's powered by steam, ensuring that they won't end up in competition with them without a very expensive investment to repower an aging hull.

Can't imagine Amtrak having any luck in court if they took offense at what their retired rolling stock was being used for after sale, or why they'd even waste legal's time in pursuing matters. Clearly if this is the case, they don't want these reused on the rails. But I can't imagine it being important enough to them that they'd take legal action of any sort towards buyers not intimidated by the fine print.

It almost sounds like Amtrak is afraid that they could be held responsible if something like a truck fails on their former rolling stock, and by officially forbidding reuse such cars by other rail operators, they think they're protecting themselves from potential ambulance chasers.

My (vague and definitely cynical) understanding of such circumstances is that companies do this as an ultimate "disclaimer" to (attempt to) absolve themselves from liability in a litigation-promoting environment like the United States. In lawsuit-happy America, adding to a sales contract "Purchaser assumes any and all past and future liability regarding purchased item" simply doesn't stand up (at least not enough) to a shark lawyer and a boo-hoo-hoo jury, and is part and parcel of why your insurance premiums are so high. In at least theory (I am not an attorney nor do I pretend to be one on TV or elsewhere), the onus thus is upon the buyer for violating the terms of the sales agreement.

I observed a similar situation in Britain where manufacturers' prototype cars--basically any car they pull out for any form of modification or testing--are required to be destroyed completely by the manufacturer rather than be sold or even parted out--which has led to occasional viral photos/videos of new-ish Jaguars, Rolls-Royces, Aston Martins, etc. being crushed. I have been told that a couple shrewd foreigners executed end-runs around that law by having said test cars exported to be "destroyed" by being modified into race cars, custom cars, or whatnot--one of my associates was trying to do that with an MG-F with a variable-valve-control engine before I lost track of him and the marque went dead (yet again).

Amtrak doesn't care if they are reused. They just need to uncouple themselves from the train of liability.

So they don't need to definitively prevent their re-use, only make reasonable enough efforts so a jury sees some new actor, and not them, responsible for the return to service.

A term of sale is only an agreement between seller and buyer. It cannot bind a third party plaintiff. It can bind the buyer to leap in and accept liability, but that only works if he's actually able to do so. Otherwise every large corporation would find a hobo sleeping under a bridge and contractually transfer all their liability to him in exchange for a 6-pack of beer.

Seems to me (I'm not a lawyer) that if an buyer purchases a passenger car from an outfit, with the stipulation that it is not suitable for railroad use...and the buyer does so anyway, the buyer would be liable for willful negligence should an incident transpire that involves said car and results in injury or loss of life to passengers.

Attorneys in the audience- What say you ?

Dave

Some additional info and corrections on the above list:

#8502 was indeed built as CB&Q #198 Silver Cuisine by Budd in 1952 in Lot #9624-112, for the Ak-Sar-Ben Zephyr, with 48 seats. It was sold to Amtrak in 1971 as #8053, and was converted to head end power (HEP) in 1979 as #8502.

#8504 was indeed built as CB&Q #195 Silver Restaurant by Budd in 1948 in Lot #9624-019, for the California Zephyr, with 48 seats. It was sold to Amtrak in 1971 as #8052, with seating reduced to 40, and was converted to HEP in 1979 as #8504.

#8505 was indeed built for the North Coast Limited by Budd in 1957 (not 1958) in Lot #9624-210, with 48 seats, but as CB&Q #458, not NP #458. It was planned to be renumbered as BN #1292, but this was not applied. It was sold to Amtrak in 1971 as #8045, with seating reduced to 40, and was converted to HEP in 1980 as #8505.

#8507 was indeed built as NP #463 by Budd in 1958 in Lot #9624-210, for the North Coast Limited, with 48 seats. It was planned to be renumbered as BN #1297, but this was not applied. It was sold to Amtrak in 1971 as #8049, with seating reduced to 40, and was converted to HEP in 1980 as #8507.

#8509 was built as NP #460 by Budd in 1958 in Lot #9624-210, for the North Coast Limited, with 48 seats. The #459 had been damaged, and was the only car from this Lot which was not sold to Amtrak. Instead, it was retained by BN, became BN #A26 in 1974, and is now BNSF #10/#800139 Lake Superior. The #460 was planned to be renumbered as BN #1294, but this was not applied. It was sold to Amtrak in 1971 as #8046, with seating reduced to 40, and was converted to HEP in 1980 as #8509, with seating changed back to 48.

#8510 was indeed built as CB&Q #193 Silver Café by Budd in 1948 in Lot #9624-019, for the California Zephyr, with 48 seats. It was sold to Amtrak in 1971 as #8050, with seating reduced to 40, and was converted to HEP in 1980 as #8510.

#8512 was indeed built as NYC #463 by Budd in 1948 in Lot #9644-004, as a grill diner with 44 seats, in NYC Lot #2178. It indeed became PC #4563, was sold to Amtrak in 1973 as #8335, and was converted to HEP in 1980 as straight diner #8512, with seating increased to 48.

#8519 was indeed built for the NYC, as grill diner #450 with 44 seats, by Budd in 1948 in Lot #9644-004, in NYC Lot #2178. It became PC #4550, was sold to Amtrak in 1973 as #8330, was converted to HEP in 1981 as straight diner #8519, with seating increased to 48, and was sold in 2006 to the Tennessee Central Railway Museum as TCRX #8519. I don't have anything in my notes indicating that this car was wrecked while in the consist of the Silver Star, but my info on Amtrak's wrecks, accidents, and other mishaps involving their passenger cars is not complete.

#8521 was indeed built as SOU #3306 by Budd in 1949 (not 1948) in Lot #9624-030, for the Crescent, with 44 seats. I have not seen any info that indicates that this car was originally named Merry Young. It was sold to Amtrak in 1979 as #8380, and was converted to HEP in 1984 as #8521, with seating increased to 48.

#8524 was indeed built as SOU #3309 by Budd in 1949 (not 1948) in Lot #9624-030, for the Crescent, with 44 seats. I have not seen any info that indicates that this car was originally named Harvest Inn. It was sold to Amtrak in 1979 as #8383, and was converted to HEP in 1984 as #8524, with seating increased to 48.

#8527 was indeed built as SP #10212 by Budd in 1950 in Lot #9624-040, as an "Audubon" diner for the Sunset Limited, with 48 seats, in SP Class 83-D-3. It was sold to Amtrak in 1971 as #8062, and was converted to HEP in 1981 as #8527, with seating reduced to 40.

#8528 was indeed built as SP #10213 by Budd in 1950 in Lot #9624-040, as an "Audubon" diner for the Sunset Limited, with 48 seats, in SP Class 83-D-3. It was sold to Amtrak in 1971 as #8063, and was converted to HEP in 1981 as #8528.

#8530 was indeed built as PRR #7143 Molly Pitcher, a Class PP85 29 seat parlor (with 5 seat day-use drawing room) for the Congressional, by Budd in 1951 (not 1952) in Lot #9628-110 to Pullman Plan #9526. In the 1960's, a buffet station was added. It was sold to Amtrak in 1971, and was initially planned as #3643, which was not applied, and it instead became buffet lounge #3321, with 46 seats. It was converted to HEP in 1983, and at the same time was rebuilt to cafeteria (buffet) car #8702 for service on the Auto Train, with 32 seats. In 2000, it was rebuilt to straight diner #8530, with 40 seats.

#8531 was indeed built as CB&Q #4737 Silver Bit, a 50 seat leg rest chair (coach) for the Denver Zephyr, by Budd in 1956 in Lot #9613-169. It was planned to be renumbered as BN #5084, which I have in my notes as being applied. It was sold to Amtrak in 1971 as #5014, and was originally planned for conversion to HEP as a chair (coach), most likely as #5003, but this was cancelled, and instead it was converted to HEP in 1985, and at the same time was rebuilt to café car #8711 for service on the Auto Train, number of seats unknown. In 2008, it was rebuilt to straight diner #8531, with 40 seats.

#8532 was indeed built as CB&Q #4739 Silver Halter, a 50 seat leg rest chair (coach) for the Denver Zephyr, by Budd in 1956 in Lot #9613-169. It was planned to be renumbered as BN #5086, which I have in my notes as being applied. It was sold to Amtrak in 1971 as #5016, and was originally planned for conversion to HEP as a chair (coach), most likely as #5005, but this was cancelled, and instead it was converted to HEP in 1985, and at the same time was rebuilt to café car #8716 for service on the Auto Train, number of seats unknown. In 2008, it was rebuilt to straight diner #8532, with 40 seats.

#8550 was indeed built as NP #462 by Budd in 1958 in Lot #9624-210, for the North Coast Limited, with 48 seats. It was planned to be renumbered as BN #1296, which I have in my notes as being applied. It was sold to Amtrak in 1971 as #8048, with seating reduced to 40, was converted to HEP in 1980 as #8506, and was rebuilt in 1986 to griddle diner #8550, with seating changed back to 48.

#8551 was indeed built as CB&Q #194 Silver Diner by Budd in 1948 in Lot #9624-019, for the California Zephyr, with 48 seats. It was sold to Amtrak in 1971 as #8051, with seating reduced to 40, was converted to HEP in 1979 as #8500, and was rebuilt in 1987 to griddle diner #8551, with seating changed back to 48.

#8552 was indeed built as NP #461 by Budd in 1958 in Lot #9624-210, for the North Coast Limited, with 48 seats. It was planned to be renumbered as BN #1295, but this was not applied. It was sold to Amtrak in 1971 as #8047, with seating reduced to 40, was converted to HEP in 1980 as #8508, and was rebuilt in 1986 to griddle diner #8552, with seating changed back to 48.

#8553 was indeed built as NYC #452 by Budd in 1948 in Lot #9644-004, as a grill diner with 44 seats, in NYC Lot #2178. It indeed became PC #4552, was sold to Amtrak in 1973 as #8331, was converted to HEP in 1981 as straight diner #8516, with seating increased to 48, and was rebuilt in 1985 to griddle diner #8553.

#8558 was indeed built as SOU #3307 by Budd in 1949 (not 1948) in Lot #9624-030, for the Crescent, with 44 seats. It was sold to Amtrak in 1979 as #8381. It was originally planned for conversion to HEP in circa 1984 as diner #8522, but this was cancelled, and instead it was converted to HEP in 1985 as griddle diner #8558, with seating increased to 48.

#8559 was indeed built as SP #10210 by Budd in 1950 in Lot #9624-040, as an "Audubon" diner for the Sunset Limited, with 48 seats, in SP Class 83-D-3. It was sold to Amtrak in 1971 as #8060, was converted to HEP in 1981 as #8526, and was rebuilt in 1986 to griddle diner #8559.

Sources:

1. "Streamliner Cars Volume Two: The Budd Company" by W. David Randall (RPC Publications, 1981)

2. "Amtrak by the Numbers" by David C. Warner and Elbert Simon (White River Productions, 2011)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. Burlington Route Historical Society's CB&Q lightweight passenger car roster page, sorted by number: http://www.burlingtonroute.com/docs/rosters/stainlessnumber.html

5. On Track On Line's Amtrak roster pages: http://on-track-on-line.com/amtrak-roster.shtml

___5a. Specifically, their heritage diner page is here: http://on-track-on-line.com/amtkrinf-diners.shtml

_________________
Happy Thanksgiving!

Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

If anyone is tracking the last Heritage cars, note that #5 today had heritage baggage car 1761 in the consist.

Hi,

Do I recall correcty that there was on;y one Amfleet I diner built and the Heritage fleet diners were kept running in almost all Heritage fleet trains due to the lack of funding for the Amfleet 1 diners?

Thanks.

Doug vV

Bringing this one back from the dead:

It appears that Amtrak has, miraculously found an excuse to keep the last Heritage Fleet cars running even longer--albeit empty:

https://csanders429.wordpress.com/2018/ ... meals/amp/

What will running with the rear door open do to sanitation inspections?

That minimum axle count requirement would seem to be an obstacle to the new President's desire to switch to trainsets.