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 Post subject: Re: American steam in Cuba
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:10 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:05 am
Posts: 118
Arn't there a lot of locomotives here that could use our help and money instead of bringing in more that would just sit and rot away as so many American locomotives are now?
Al


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 Post subject: Re: American steam in Cuba
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:49 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:52 pm
Posts: 914
Hi,

I wonder if Cia Aucarera Madrozo still has its outside frame 2-8-0?

Supposedly it was built as Crystal River Railroad #11 as an 0-8-0. It is the sister to D&RGW C21 class (ex-CRRR 2-8-0s).

Apparently it could not be paid for and was either delivered and returned or never shipped. It was turned into a 2-8-0 and became Columbus & Rome #4 (Georgia). When the C&R was purchased by the Central of Georgia, it became CofG #804. It became Gainesville Midland 804 in 1906 and to Mount Airy & Eastern #9. Best I can determine is MA&E could not pay and the loco went to Tallahalla Lumber #3 By 1916, it was sold to Cia Aucarera Madrozo 8/1918.

The interesting latest was that it was sold to an American and before it could be shipped, Fidel came to power.

It would be an interesting new chapter in the loco's history.

Doug vV


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 Post subject: Re: American steam in Cuba
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:16 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 6400
Location: southeastern USA
Cuba is changing, and will change faster the more we share with them in terms of tourism and development. Other countries that aren't communist are doing business there - including Canada - so I think that if we are interested in preservation, preserving Cuban railroading in Cuba is the best solution.

I'm somewhat dismayed when I hear all the indignation about Castro - which is certainly based in truth - without an equal amount of indignation about the puppet Batista that we propped up while he committed similar predations in the name of capitalism for American sugar interests, thus making the emergence of a Castro inevitable.

This is an opportunity to do good preservation and help people prosper, if we don't screw it up. Remember the assassination by exploding cigar idea promoted by the CIA......... we have much to live down ourselves in this international relationship.

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“God, the beautiful racket of it all: the sighing and hissing, the rattle and clack of the cars over the rails. These were the sounds that made America the greatest country on earth." Jonathan Evison


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 Post subject: Re: American steam in Cuba
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:34 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11482
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Dave wrote:
I'm somewhat dismayed when I hear all the indignation about Castro - which is certainly based in truth - without an equal amount of indignation about the puppet Batista that we propped up while he committed similar predations in the name of capitalism for American sugar interests, thus making the emergence of a Castro inevitable.


I/we can't do a damned thing about Batista or those that enabled/supported him. Just like I can't do a darned thing about slavery in the United States in past centuries.

What I/we can do, however, is choose NOT to participate in yet another hoodwinking of non-Cuban people/corporations who think they're benefiting "the Cuban people" by "investing" in a Communist country when, in reality, their proposed/planned actions would serve to do nothing more than enrich and further empower the current corrupt dictatorship. Further, I can also discourage others from doing so until such time that there is true economic freedom and liberty in Cuba.


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 Post subject: Re: American steam in Cuba
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:01 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 6400
Location: southeastern USA
You could stop discouraging others from trying to make amends and improve current conditions to the extent that they can. Times of transition are interesting times to remove barriers and open up communication in many ways - and I'm not suggesting you put one penny into their economy. I think it would be a fascinating time to visit if I could travel at this point - and see things firsthand. I have had friends who visited Cuba about 20 years ago specifically to experience operating steam in the sugar lines who had great stories to tell of hands-on exploits that were the closest things possible to a time machine that could transport them to American style shortline railroading in the 1920's with a different language, things we couldn't duplicate here any longer. Other friends have visited Russia and China..... differing economic an social philosophies are not good reasons to refuse to interact with other peoples. Our system isn't doing particularly well at this point, so why not learn about others without the imposition of reactionary xenophobia?

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“God, the beautiful racket of it all: the sighing and hissing, the rattle and clack of the cars over the rails. These were the sounds that made America the greatest country on earth." Jonathan Evison


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 Post subject: Re: American steam in Cuba
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:18 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:52 pm
Posts: 914
Hi,

Three quick points:

1) The shaw of Iran,

2) North Korea,

3) China today.

Embargos for Cuba as well as 1 and 2 never seem to work. Too many ways around them.

The economic trade is an extremely powerful tool to make changes. China has been twitting their thumb at the US for many years - they are the primary buyer of US treasury bonds I think.

'nuff said.

I'd love to see the ex-Hershey railroads in Cuba. Mom grew up in Harrisburg, PA and Hershey PA was about 10 miles away. Fascinating place. I remember that all the street lights were shaped like giant Hershey Kisses.

Doug vV


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 Post subject: Re: American steam in Cuba
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:02 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1543
Dave wrote:
I have had friends who visited Cuba about 20 years ago...

...differing economic an social philosophies are not good reasons to refuse to interact with other peoples. Our system isn't doing particularly well at this point, so why not learn about others without the imposition of reactionary xenophobia?


It is perfectly reasonable to object to the murderous Cuban dictatorship as being the core of the problem with Cuba. That has nothing to do with what you call "reactionary xenophobia." Regardless of what preceded Castro, he could have set that country free and unleashed its natural thirst for prosperity. Their government could still set Cuba free. The next move is up to them.


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 Post subject: Re: American steam in Cuba
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:45 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 5:52 pm
Posts: 559
Location: Apple Valley, Minnesota
DougVv wrote:
'nuff said.


Dear mods.

I heartily concur with DougVv's brief but eloquent statement. This thread has drifted into political waters and has lost it's way. Perhaps it ought to be locked as the entire discussion on what's going to happen with Cuba's extant steam locomotives (living or dead), the state of Cuba's railroads, and the political future of Cuba, is purely academic right now. It reminds me of the endless talking heads on CNN and Fox wondering about what's going to happen coming up to the recent election.

Let's wake this sleeping bear in 4-5 years and study what has happened. For those who have a legitimate concern about saving a 70-ton 4-6-0 for your museum or tourist railroad, perhaps you guys can start a group on Facebook or some such and discuss this whole thing ad nauseum among yourselves?

Thanks!

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Jim Vaitkunas
Minnesota Streetcar Museum
www.trolleyride.org


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 Post subject: Re: American steam in Cuba
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 3:17 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:24 pm
Posts: 147
Location: Columbus, GA
Bypassing the other issues ...

Of the narrow gauge lines in Cuba, the Rafael Freyre would be my preferred candidate for restoration. Followed by the Mal Tiempo and the Simon Bolivar/Obdulio Morales. I would also be thrilled to see a Baldwin or two be repatriated to the U.S.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kam-nZJ0ovM&t=545s

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Glenn Christensen


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 Post subject: Re: American steam in Cuba
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 5:06 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:25 pm
Posts: 2329
Location: The Atlantic Coast Line
I'd like a Hershey interurban for our international collection of streetcars.

Wesley


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 Post subject: Re: American steam in Cuba
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:02 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2815
Location: Northern Illinois
I thought they were all retired something like twenty years ago? Replaced by some sort of used transit cars? Sometime back a ran into a Youtube video of the operation in recent years... the transit cars didn't have step wells, so they installed concrete stairs and tiny platforms at each station.

I suspect everyone looks at the old classic autos, and thinks the rest of Cuba is like that. The autos survived because they were status symbols, in a society where there weren't many. I don't think the trains were ever status symbols.

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Dennis Storzek


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 Post subject: Re: American steam in Cuba
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:20 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 2367
"I'm somewhat dismayed when I hear all the indignation about Castro - which is certainly based in truth - without an equal amount of indignation about the puppet Batista"

Well then, you must not have adequate information or a capacity to assess it. They are no more equal than petty theft is to horsethievery. Unlike Castro, Batista was actually elected once; and he wasn't the fulcrum for a potential nuclear holocaust.

You might want to skip the whitewashed hagiographies offered by the sorts of chattering class commentators who admire dictators as long as they spew the right of propaganda and actually talk to the people who lived there to understand why the criticism isn't equal.

My fourth grade teacher is a Cuban emigre. She is long retired; but still alive. Once in a while, when I visit my parents; I will see her about and say hello.

I will never forget her accounts of realizing that Castro was a monster in the making; of having to flush the greenbacks they had accumulated as a precaution when they realized a flight to the US might be necessary, about how her husband - a physician- had to work as an orderly or some other unlicensed position until the question of his credentials could be settled. Whatever the demerits of Batista; they never felt compelled to uproot their young family and leave their home in warm, sunny place to experience the joys of Pocono winters under that regime.

She raised her children to be productive citizens; her son Juan is a doctor like his father and served in the Army, I believe.

http://doctor.webmd.com/doctor/juan-der ... 8-overview

Now, to return us to the topic at hand; assuming the Cubans; who for decades have been indoctrinated to reject Americans and capitalism had anything to preserve; they would have done so for their use or display. The Cuban people have been extraordinarily inventive in preserving 1950's automobiles.

I saw this earlier this year; a good indication that if there was anything left of their locomotive fleet worth saving, they would have done so.




http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/lo ... inara.html


http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/ce ... ation.html


The best comment on the state of Cuban machinery was the breakdown of Castro's funeral motorcade.


Attachment:
castro.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: American steam in Cuba
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:27 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 6400
Location: southeastern USA
In 1959 my family moved to Miami from Pittsburgh, while other families moved from Cuba to the same city. I went to school with these people, huddled under desks with them during rehearsals for nuclear raids, and learned from those involved more than one perspective about that - only the most recent - of many revolutions. Certainly more people were disappointed with how it turned out than were pleased with it, but it was well supported in the first place by those not part of the upper class. Few of the upper class ever lead or support an effort to level the field when they hold the high ground. I'd never argue that it was what we'd prefer to see insofar as the way we want our neighbors to behave under any circumstances - but to some extent we did provoke them to it by the way we treated them and if we're not going to by hypocritical about it we need to hold ourselves responsible for our actions and their consequences.

Cuba has suffered from a lot of being screwed around with by foreign colonial powers for centuries, not alone. It's critical in our sphere of influence - geopolitically, consider the impact of China forming a military and economic partnership with them that could control access to the Gulf of Mexico, for example. Fortunately, as Fidel has aged, a diplomatic dance has begun and Raul seems to like dancing better than his brother - so we're already in the process of preventing future difficulties and opening the country to more reforms. If we don't screw it up it will be good for the Cubans and for us. It's based on interaction, not on stonewalling - and if we're happily working with other actors in the Middle East with equally bad human rights records (and I'm not among those who are arrogant enough to insist every culture must define them the same way we do) to provide us with what we need to fight against ISIL et al, we're already pragmatists more than evangelists.

I'm kind of sorry I started this line of discussion and have no more to say about it, but we do need to understand the entirety of the history and situation if our thinking is to have any basis in reality. Emotional and moralistic reaction isn't an adequate basis on which to play the long game and do the most good for the most people in the process.

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“God, the beautiful racket of it all: the sighing and hissing, the rattle and clack of the cars over the rails. These were the sounds that made America the greatest country on earth." Jonathan Evison


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 Post subject: Re: American steam in Cuba
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:58 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 2367
Attachment:
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"Certainly more people were disappointed with how it turned out than were pleased with it, but it was well supported in the first place by those not part of the upper class."

Thank you for confirming that you have adequate information but are unwilling or incapable of ordering it. I guess that you aren't much of a fan of Churchill.

For your next political discourse; you might explore being dismayed by the focus on Hitler to the neglect of the ills of the Weimar Republic, preferably on board dedicated to political rants.

The PRESERVATION RELATED fact remains; there is no treasure trove of steam locomotives awaiting repatriation to the US. Even if it weren't a wild goose chase; it would be inefficient when one considers the opportunity cost; there are hundreds of locomotives already here in deplorable condition; and if one really wanted to focus on locomotives built for imperialist domination of , er I mean export to Central and South America-N de M 3028 is already at New Hope.

It is already close to its birthplace;

It is close to the Reading and Northern which hosts CNJ 113, so it is steam friendly

A little further away is Steamtown; situated adjacent or upon grounds formerly owned by ALCO predecessor Dickson. I'd bet (speaking only for me and my betting tendencies, not Steamtown or any of its partners) that a light 4-8-4, if it were in safe operating condition and accompanied by a well-trained support staff might find an open stall.

Apparently this frivolous obsession with Cuban steam has an even longer shelf life than the recently deceased tyrant.


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