It is currently Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:47 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 69 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: When paint matters (and other grievances)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:42 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:10 am
Posts: 2252
Son of a Coast Liner wrote:
This is kind of like refusing to acknowledge Reggie Jackson's HOF career because he went into Cooperstown as a Yankee instead of his original team, the Royals.


I think it is more like putting Reggie in the Hall as a Met. I mean, what difference does a uniform make? It's just fabric and can always be changed. He didn't play for the Mets, but the Mets had other outfielders, and heck they were even in New York!

Which is a tongue-in-cheek way of saying, sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't.

I think we all agree the WMSR is a working railroad, not the Hall of Fame. Reggie as a Met/#1309 painted for WM is not a big deal at WMSR. But Reggie as a Met/#1309 painted for WM is a big deal at the Hall of Fame.

BUT, if one sought donations for a Reggie display with the implication he'd be in a Yankee jersey, you can bet folks who donated would be questioning why he's wearing a Mets jersey. Right?

By railroad preservation standards, the Yankee fans who donated and complained would be a bunch of buffoons who should just be happy Reggie is in the Hall and not get all foamed up over his Mets jersey.

That's the nuance at the heart of my initial post, and it leads to the initial point which . isn't really about paint (or horns), it is about intent... specifically the intent proclaimed when seeking donations.

Rob

PS: To make it clearer. If the Henry Ford Museum restored DL&N #7 but painted her black and lettered her for Greenfield Village, she would still be remarkable. But, by making the effort to have her look (as close as feasibly possible) "right," she is a truly stunning restoration.

Same could be said for Steamtown #26. A black #26 would make the same smoke and sounds the kids love, but a green #26 is more of an interpretive artifact that invites (and expands) understanding of the artifact and Baldwin's practices.

And again, which is best depends upon the mission and how much importance historical accuracy makes to the owners -- and (when applicable) what donors expect.

The details don't decide the worthiness of a project, but attention to them - and the inherent respect of history that attention requires - can move a great job into the realm of fantastic job (from an historical perspective).


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: When paint matters (and other grievances)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:10 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:05 pm
Posts: 25
I wasn't going to participate in this, another round of beating the same old dead horse, but since I'm bored....

I agree that it's better to see it preserved, albeit in a less than 'perfect' paint job, than returning to the ground from whence it came, but with some limits. I have no use for completely inappropriate hack jobs, like you see in Hollywood pictures (diamond stacks and overly long 'cowcatchers' etc. on 'modern' steam power, paint jobs on same that wouldn't even be appropriate on Victorian era steam). I also realize that there are different reasons for things to continue to be, and what's appropriate for one isn't for another.

There's a place for museums - that have an absolute duty to be rivet counters, use correct methods, materials and colors during restorations in order to preserve what really was for future generations to 'interpret' (I've always hated that term), there's a place for operating RRs that use old equipment to haul freight and entertain tourists, there's a place for the individual/small group preservationists that take on preservation with good intentions and sometimes limited means and/or knowledge, and there's a place for working RRs that use old equipment in whatever way they see fit - as tools of the trade that they are - with little or no regard for historical integrity. And then you have the situation of museums that preserve original fabric and operate, sometimes operating original historic equipment, sometimes keeping the originals static and operating more modern, 'reproduction', or non-accessioned equipment for entertainment - a great compromise when done correctly.

Using Strasburg as an example of the second type, I think they've done it right when it comes to paint, etc. for an outfit that relies on history as an attraction. Some periods the engines carry Strasburg paint/lettering, sometimes the historic. But I will always support a RR putting it's own name on equipment and require that a museum properly paint/letter a restoration project. I think we really have to make that distinction. When a RR purchases a piece of equipment to do a job, it has every right to put it's own name/number on the side. In the case of 1309, the engine ran for it's original purchaser for about 7 years IIRC before deciding it was outdated junk fit only for a museum or park jungle gym. It's new owner is a RR, not a museum per se -it's business is tourism with a historic and scenic context. WMSR has already pointed out that they expect to operate it for 50 years or more, so this engine will go to work someplace else, for somebody else, for a much longer career there, as does equipment at Strasburg and elsewhere. It's still iron, fire and water putting on a show while it does its work, but that doesn't mean that any reasonable person should put it on a mental pedestal or make it some sacred cow. That's what foamers do (losing the respect of professionals and doers in the process....). There's no place for the ignorant foamer who has no grasp of reality and contributes nothing but disruption. I've tried talking to and educating foamers about the real deal over the years, but like they say, you can lead a horse to water...

So my suggestion -

Some time ago there was a thread on here (that died on the vine) dealing with this issue, suggesting establishment of standards or classifications for such issues - possibly through involvement with the combined TRAIN/ARM outfit. I suggest that classification system be established, as a guide for reporting, establishing maintenance/restoration standards as they apply to each category, and as a reference/priority guide for fundraising efforts. The latter could eventually be incorporated into tax code to provide incentives to contribute not just to the usual 501(c)(3) museums, but other classifications as well. Why shouldn't someone be able to get a tax break for donating to Strasburg's upkeep and restoration of old iron, when it contributes hugely to the local tourism economy? There are many places where similar operations do/could contribute not just to tourism, but preserve lines that would otherwise become rail trails and continue/re-establish local freight service.

Establish and implement the standards, make them known to one and all, and then maybe we can ignore the useless foamers, stop this recurrent distraction, and get some more work done.

Stepping down from the soapbox now...

_________________
G.
______________________________________
"What the #^(& did we just hit, over?"


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: When paint matters (and other grievances)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:56 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:52 pm
Posts: 25
Randy Hees wrote:
The important issue in these cases is to document your decisions in a preservation plan... It should include a history of the object, document changes made to it, the various ways it was painted over its life, its condition, then from that the decisions made.

That document should be held in the groups archives, and if the public has question they should be allowed to review it. Nevada State Railroad Museum in Carson City has sold copies of some of these in their gift shop.

If honestly done, you could choose to paint something in a different railroad's paint but the knowledge and options would be preserved.

I have seen finish options and documentation presented at several house museums.

I would also note that railroad preservation has a broad spectrum of organizations, from museum (of which some are railroad focused, while some have railroad equipment in the collection) to tourist railroad, to private collectors, and even just railroads, so, many or even most are not museums, and are not attempting to follow museum practices.

Randy


I fully agree. The museum or organization should have a working collections management plan with a working restoration/preservation management process fore these projects addressing all these issues and how/why decisions were made at the very beginning. IMHO this will go a long way with donors if they understand what the final product will be like and the reasoning behind it. I personally will not donate to a project without a working restoration plan and process. If they want to paint it pink, they should be able to document why, historic restoration or historic preservation.

Unfortunately, many museums do not want to follow this "bureaucratic" process as it gets in the way of what certain people may want personally or is not their perception of what they think it should look like, even if there is know historical documentation to back it up. Unfortunately, projects are presented as historically correct when they really are not and future generations will go on believing that it is.

At the request of the local museum that I am a member of (advisory board) I developed a collection management program and restoration/preservation process. It was based on several similar programs that I reviewed, including the excellent one at the Nevada State RR Museum, OERM and others. Unfortunately, it was thrown on a shelf and never used....to much work. Quality restoration and preservation continues, but not sure how it is documented or justified as changes are made or how the piece is represented. Lots of disagreement over how objects are preserved and represented (painted).

My 2 cents.

MD Ramsey


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: When paint matters (and other grievances)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:04 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 33
This is an excellent topic to discuss.

It's important for any museum / railroad to have a proper understanding of what they are representing. This isn't just for railfans, it helps them to have a proper and consistent brand with the general public as well.

It's also important to note, that most larger locomotives are their own brand. Santa Fe #3751, Nickel Plate #765, Milwaukee Road #261 - the locomotive IS the brand. Regardless of the mission, wouldn't it be odd to letter the #765 as "Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society" instead of Nickel Plate? Nickel Plate #765 is a bigger brand than FWRHS. I think that's part of the problem with the #1309, the #1309 is a large, unique, locomotive and "C&O #1309" is big enough to be it's own brand.

On the other side of the coin (ALWAYS 2 sides!) the Western Maryland Scenic operates on the former Western Maryland railroad.... if the goal is to recreate and represent Western Maryland operations (see my first point, it's important to have a proper understanding of what you are representing) it makes perfect sense to letter the #1309 as a Western Maryland locomotive for the experience they are trying to create.

I'm just trying to add some food for thought here...


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: When paint matters (and other grievances)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:40 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 672
Paint one side of it WM and the other side C&O.

Problem solved.

In my experience, those who bray the loudest about authenticity usually are the ones who contribute the least in time, effort and/or dollars. Their greatest thrill in life seems to be finding something to gripe about, real or imagined.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: When paint matters (and other grievances)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:05 am 

Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:26 am
Posts: 3
Are any of the collection management plans mentioned above available to read online? I would appreciate any links to them. After reading down the through the postings I have seen examples of all of these. Some inside railroad preservation, some in other areas. Almost all preservation efforts have their place, from the well funded exactly perfect projects completed by skilled professionals in big well equipped shops to just 1 person working alone or with little help on a not-to -glamorous project. Either way something is saved, Level of restoration? ...perfect, historically correct is great, but sometimes not practical. or able to be done due to lack of parts. Looking at both of these from an outside prospective, the perfect project is admired & remembered. The other might not be perfect but is operational and spurs interest in the hobby. I find myself on both sides of it.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: When paint matters (and other grievances)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:19 am 

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:18 am
Posts: 151
My Personal opinion is that the paint does not matter. Much like Ross Roland pointed out in the locked 1309 thread, his experience with the NKP 759 back almost 50 years ago would still ring true today; There are a certain subset of purists who will accept nothing but original, in regards to locomotive paint.

Though I would raise a few well-meaning arguments as to why I am in favor of painting it for the Western Maryland. Its not the first locomotive to be done up in WM paint, without being an original WM locomotive.The 734 was an LS&I steam engine for a majority of its life, but who refers to it as LS&I 34? I've never seen anything besides historical information used in reference as LS&I. Its masquerade is well-meaning and well performed, as I'm sure the 1309's restoration will end up as well.

The WMSR also has two Conrail GP30s masquerading as "authentic" WM diesel power (Keep in mind the WM never had GP30s). Are these terrible for preservation for the same way some may argue that the 1309's paint will be? I would say no, and I would also say it serves better to hold the memory of the Wild Mary alive.

My second counter would be this. C&O 614 was in much more than just C&O paint over its life. I count at least a half-dozen scheme it has worn besides its C&O garb. Chessie Steam Express, Family Lines Safety Express, ACE 3000 test paint, 21st Century Limited Paint, and most recently, Greenbrier Presidential Express paint. Beneath that paint is the same locomotive that rolled out of Lima back in 1948. Is the historical value of the C&O 614 diminished due to these changes?

Should the Blue Mountain and Reading be scolded for daring to paint the RDG 2102 and GM&O 580 into its personal schemes? Should we say Chessie System was wrong to paint the 2101 into Chessie paint? ever think badly of the SP 4449 for being painted Red White and Blue, or Black with BNSF logos? I can continue to name multiple locomotives, both steam and diesel, which served some major function or multiple runs in "Non-Historical" paint for the locomotive. When it comes down to it, however, the most important part of the artifact at hand is the locomotive underneath the paint.

Sure, I can understand the disappointment of having the C&O 1309 not being painted into C&O paint. Would you be content, however, to instead still see it languish at the B&O museum, out in the elements, instead of traveling the High Iron?


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: When paint matters (and other grievances)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:23 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:25 pm
Posts: 1737
Quote:
Are any of the collection management plans mentioned above available to read online?

Recommended Practices for Railway Museums, an Initiative of the Association of Railway Museums in cooperation with the American Association of Museums in 1997, and printed with a grant from the Institute for Museum and Library Services.

Wesley


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: When paint matters (and other grievances)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:23 am 

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 51
Location: Orrville, OH
In my opinion, simply put, if you're restoring it as a historic artifact for display, then a historically correct paint scheme would be appropriate. If you're restoring it for use to generate income, then it becomes a rolling billboard for your organization. Brand recognition matters when you're trying to attract paying customers.

_________________
Eric Schlentner
ORHS


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: When paint matters (and other grievances)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:37 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8027
Location: Baltimore, MD
The Strasburg Rail Road, which many hail in the 2010s as the greatest gift to steam-era rail preservation, which can apparently do no wrong in the eyes of every amateur that wants to tell every wannabe steam restoration project where to take their loco.........

........... for decades painted "STRASBURG" boldly on the sides of the passenger cars and the tenders of the locos it owned.

So did they only start "doing right" with folks after they lettered 475 N&W, lettered the Ma & Pa coach 20 as such, etc.?


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: When paint matters (and other grievances)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:17 am 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 33
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
The Strasburg Rail Road, which many hail in the 2010s as the greatest gift to steam-era rail preservation, which can apparently do no wrong in the eyes of every amateur that wants to tell every wannabe steam restoration project where to take their loco.........

........... for decades painted "STRASBURG" boldly on the sides of the passenger cars and the tenders of the locos it owned.

So did they only start "doing right" with folks after they lettered 475 N&W, lettered the Ma & Pa coach 20 as such, etc.?


Wow.. someone has some envy with Strasburg.

Before you write such a bold statement, you may want to see that you have facts correct, the Strasburg Locomotives are currently lettered "Strasburg."


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: When paint matters (and other grievances)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:56 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8027
Location: Baltimore, MD
Not "envious" of them at all. I know them well enough to know they have a bit more humility than to think of themselves in the fawning attributes assigned to them by folks who believe that they are apparently superhuman or possessed with magical powers of infallibility. They're amazingly good at what they do.

But shouldn't those same "fanboys" be denigrating them mightily for lettering the equipment "Strasburg," as opposed to doing perfect restorations to original schemes?

(PLEASE NOTE: I'm throwing sarcasm here by the tenderful.)

And before the original pot-stirrer chimes in, YES, I know that the Strasburg doesn't come to us soliciting tax-deductible donations to fix up steam locos or cars. (The RR Museum of Long Island does for that G5 project, mind you.....)

You are free to decide that you won't donate to the million-dollar restoration of a steam locomotive because of a couple dollars of paint shaped the wrong way. It's your right in a free country, and your money. And we are concurrently free to consider such a judgement the most over-the-top, nitpicking pedantry we've seen in ages.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: When paint matters (and other grievances)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:01 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:10 am
Posts: 2252
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
And before the original pot-stirrer chimes in, YES, I know that the Strasburg doesn't come to us soliciting tax-deductible donations to fix up steam locos or cars. (The RR Museum of Long Island does for that G5 project, mind you.....)

You are free to decide that you won't donate to the million-dollar restoration of a steam locomotive because of a couple dollars of paint shaped the wrong way. It's your right in a free country, and your money. And we are concurrently free to consider such a judgement the most over-the-top, nitpicking pedantry we've seen in ages.


----

Agree or not, you understand my point about donors and for that I am grateful.

For those reading between the lines, this thread was never really about paint. It's about respect... respect for history and respect for others in our community.

Remember, the title is "When paint matters" not "Paint always matters."

Personally, I don't care what #1309 is lettered and I won't be morally offended if #2102 comes out of the shops blue and numbered #625. I just cringe at mocking those who would prefer to see historic appearances of machines that (I think we agree) have historic value.

It is a slippery slope that moves rail preservation further away from the norms of historic preservation, and in the name of getting grants and competing for dollars outside of the choo choo community, that could have a negative impact.

Pot-Stirrer out.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: When paint matters (and other grievances)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:36 pm 

Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:44 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Fort Worth Texas
I believe photography was the original preservation of historical artifacts even if the artifact disappears. Whatever a museum, tourist railroad or individual paints something is not going to change the true history of the item from original photography and make it true. Post WW11 the MKT railroad painted its steam engines with bright aluminum smoke and firebox paint and white rims on wheel sets. When I was painting Katy models and entering them in NMRA contest I had to show photographs of the actual engines and was accused by judges of painting park engines schemes. Preserved original photography is important to historical accuracy for the future. Mktjames


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: When paint matters (and other grievances)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:52 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1171
cood101 wrote:
Sure, I can understand the disappointment of having the C&O 1309 not being painted into C&O paint. Would you be content, however, to instead still see it languish at the B&O museum, out in the elements, instead of traveling the High Iron?


I agree that when the choice is limited to just those two options of languishing in the elements in C&O paint, or traveling down the high iron in WM paint; everyone is likely to choose the latter. However those are not the only two options.

What about the option of seeing the C&O locomotive rolling down the high iron in C&O paint? I’ll bet more people would prefer that option than either of the two that you mentioned.

In any case, while the options are endless, the debate about this topic only has two sides, which are restoration purity versus the owner’s right to do what he or she wants. Either side is nothing more than one’s opinion, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. Neither side can be proven to be right or wrong. That is why each side often resorts to personal insults to bolster their case.


Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 69 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


 Who is online

Users browsing this forum: afh7911, Bing [Bot], Chris Webster, Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot], MSNbot Media, philip.marshall, Schultz, Yahoo [Bot] and 36 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: