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 Post subject: Locomotive Valve Setting Rollers
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:47 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1031
Location: Youngstown, OH
Its almost time to set the valves on the J&L 58. I'm going to start working on a set of rollers for turning the main drivers to aid in the setting of valves. I have a vague idea of how I want to make them, but I thought I would ask if any of you have photos of similar sets of rollers so that I might get some ideas from.

I plan to use a couple of 6" phenolic tread wheels from McMaster Carr on a 3/4" shaft in pillow blocks. Driven by a right angle gear box and 24 VDC C face motor out of a Taylor Dunn cart. My main question involved how to get the wheels tight up against the driver tread.

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 Post subject: Re: Locomotive Valve Setting Rollers
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:16 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5233
Location: southeastern USA
Rollers? You already have heavy equipment and track laid. Everything you need to do can be done by shoving it back and forth with the crowder arm on a backhoe on your track. No point building something expensive, mechanized and complex for a simple task....... presume you already understand the process of setting Walschaert gear.

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 Post subject: Re: Locomotive Valve Setting Rollers
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:25 am 

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:37 pm
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Location: Maine
Maybe use a pneumatic driven tire. Then the tire pressure would adjust the contact pressure.
Bob D.


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 Post subject: Re: Locomotive Valve Setting Rollers
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:26 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1031
Location: Youngstown, OH
BTW I asked Dave to change my screen name to my real name. I stand behind everything I say! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Locomotive Valve Setting Rollers
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:36 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1031
Location: Youngstown, OH
I did find this for inspiration.

Moving the 58 is not a simple task. First realize that I have no help, so there is nobody there to run the backhoe while the other watches the loco. It is just me so I must do things that make it simple on me. Also, that backhoe is either on or off. The shuttle shift is messed up and jerks the machine around, and I don't have time to fix it right now.


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Rick Rowlands
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 Post subject: Re: Locomotive Valve Setting Rollers
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:06 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1224
Location: Strasburg, PA
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rollers.jpg
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Here is what ICS proposed, usable for any size locomotive. You tighten the long bolts to raise the tires off the track. You want to have the side rods off, so you only have to move the main drivers.

Attachment:
rollers2.jpg
rollers2.jpg [ 44.17 KiB | Viewed 1474 times ]

Here is what we made. For a very small locomotive, a hex on the end of the 2" shaft for a socket and a long handled ratchet is all that is needed. A freshly restored engine should roll over very easily. The rollers are steel. The non-driving rollers are on stub axles. They would work better with full length axles.

Dave is right, building a set of rollers isn't worth the trouble unless you will be setting valves on a regular basis. For a one engine operation (esp. with Walshaert valve gear), by the time you had the rollers built, you could have had the valves set, and you will never need it again. Moving the engine with a come-a-long is the way to go. We only built a set of rollers because the shops were getting full enough that we didn't have room to roll the engine back and forth.

Find a helper. Even with rollers, you can't work the rollers and watch the tram point at the same time.

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 Post subject: Re: Locomotive Valve Setting Rollers
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:32 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
Posts: 1475
Location: Southern California
A machinist at the Cumbres & Toltec has made a set of rollers for use at Chama.
See this link:
http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read.php?1,324780,324837#msg-324837

This is in the middle of a discussion thread entitled "Some nuts and bolts of valve setting."

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 Post subject: Re: Locomotive Valve Setting Rollers
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:34 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1031
Location: Youngstown, OH
Thanks Kelly. Your photo shows what I have had in mind. I already have most of the components that I will need so putting this together won't take me very long.

"Find a helper". Boy I wish it were that easy. This isn't eastern PA where railfans are falling over each other to be involved with the plethora of tourist railroads and museums. It is a desert in this part of the country when it comes to people who want to be involved in a restoration effort. I'm hoping that the operation of 58 brings a few out of the woodwork.

I think its been so long since we have had active steam in this part of the country that most fans don't even know what it is like to have an operable steam locomotive within driving distance. The closest steam we have is 120 miles away at Cedar Point and about 100 miles away at the "private collection". Not really any opportunities for railfans to come join in and play with a steam locomotive. Even the local tourist railroads are gone. AC&J's passenger operations are over and the Kiski Junction is not operating this year.

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 Post subject: Re: Locomotive Valve Setting Rollers
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:36 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5233
Location: southeastern USA
If I still lived in Pittsburgh I'd be right there with you, Rick. I'm sure the lack of opportunity doesn't exactly result from a lack of potential interest. Given your rapid rate of progress, I'm surprised there aren't more people who want to come out and help.

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 Post subject: Re: Locomotive Valve Setting Rollers
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:08 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:06 am
Posts: 138
Rick,
I'll echo Kelly's suggestion of using a come-a-long because it gives you very fine control of the movement. Another tool I've used is a port-a-power if there is something safe to push against. Again, it can give you very fine control when you need to move the engine only a fraction of an inch. mld


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 Post subject: Re: Locomotive Valve Setting Rollers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:37 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1031
Location: Youngstown, OH
There are other reasons why I want the rollers aside from just setting the valves.

I can disconnect the drive and turn the rollers with a wrench for the minute adjustments needed for the valve setting.

I was just asking for photos for a specific item. I got them. Thanks. That is all that I needed.

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 Post subject: Re: Locomotive Valve Setting Rollers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:45 am 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 870
I 'second' (or third, or whatever) the use of comealongs or power devices for this specific purpose, on this type of locomotive.

I am not as fond of 'pinch bar' adjustment because there is no control over potential overshoot when 1/64" or better control of steam-edge positioning may be significant. There is likely to be at least some play in the rodwork, pedestal clearance, etc, complicated perhaps by whatever tribology you're using (e.g. there may be more play with the lubricant at typical 'hot' running temperature) and you may have to roll the engine back and forth a few times making witness marks before you get the full effect.

The suggestion I would make would be to use two comealongs or whatever, in different directions, so that you have very precise control over direction 'either way' (without having to disconnect and go to the other end and then take up slack, etc.)

The purpose for a set of rollers is much more associated with continued revolution in the same direction, either for better dynamic balancing including rods-on or for testing. As Kelly noted, if you don't have a shop arrangement that allows moving the engine forward and backward, rollers can be valuable, but I doubt the arrangement he built would be safe either for balancing speeds or as a 'poor man's test plant'.

As an alternative, you can put two rollers in an articulating frame, a bit like a barn door roller 'in reverse', rigged so it replaces a short section of rail or comes up from underneath. Then cut the shop-track rail in the appropriate place and clamp or drill it as appropriate to hold it for normal use. When you want rollers, jack the engine or axles up to clear, remove the rail segments, and install or swing up the rollers to where they need to be -- this also would allow you to use reasonably-sized rollers and bearings to do the job. That is probably overkill for what you're trying to do, but it would only need to be done once (and perhaps 'universally' for all the wheel arrangements you may have or contemplate having to service).

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 Post subject: Re: Locomotive Valve Setting Rollers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:49 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5233
Location: southeastern USA
This is not a case in which being 50 thousandths off is going to make any difference. Probably 100 would be barely noticeable if at all........ it's a steel mill goat, not a Swiss watch. Get her in the ballpark and she'll be fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Locomotive Valve Setting Rollers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:56 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 870
Quote:
"This is not a case in which being 50 thousandths off is going to make any difference. Probably 100 would be barely noticeable if at all..."


You have a good point; I forgot this isn't a locomotive like 1385.

Having said that: isn't this the locomotive with the very heavy frames? And wasn't there something about having to renew the bearings or journals? Might make sense to move only the parts of the locomotive that need adjusting rather than shove forward and backward while weight-bearing.

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 Post subject: Re: Locomotive Valve Setting Rollers
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:37 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1031
Location: Youngstown, OH
These rollers will not be weight bearing. Just enough pressure against the tread for friction to spin the driver. I think you all are putting way more thought into this than necessary. If I wasn't down with the flu this week I would have had the device built by the time all of these posts had been written.

All materials, bearings, wheels, shafts etc. I already have. The only thing I needed was a visual confirmation of a design that I Had seen online a while back. I found that and now I'm just waiting for the sickness to be expelled so that I can put it together.

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