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 Post subject: Re: The B&O RR Museum's 1856 William Mason - overhaul and li
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:32 am 
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Posts: 1229
Location: Henderson Nevada
The Nevada State Railroad Museum in Carson City runs trains with link and pin drawbars (not couplers, couplers are automatic) as does the SPCRR at Ardenwood in Fremont CA...

As for the paint. There are a number of people who study paint, both by sampling on historic buildings or artifacts, or by researching railroad records, or by studying paint technology, locating and reviewing old paint catalogs or sample cards or even the paint and decorating aesthetic of the time. Those studies can be very involved. I know of a couple of cases where a sample of the paint has been analyzed to identify the specific pigments used. In some cases, particularly Baldwin the records identify the original paint colors and striping patterns as well as where brass was used.

Most physical paint research uses a simple “crater” cut through all the layers found on a car. Of course railroads were known to strip paint occasionally… I have included a sample below… the chip in resin is only occasionally used on railroad equipment if only because it is more time consuming.

We include paint studies in all of our preservation (restoration) reports as do most railroad museums in California and Nevada… the paint report can be as short as 3 pages or as long as 150…

As for the red found on the current paint on William Mason, assuming the scheme is pre-1880 or so the red would almost certainly be vermillion, a mercury based pigment. Note the wheels are not red… that is for the most part a railfan fantasy.


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 Post subject: Re: The B&O RR Museum's 1856 William Mason - overhaul and li
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:08 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:56 am
Posts: 1326
Location: Roanoke Va.
Mason used wagon top boilers as well as straight boilers prior to the Civil war. There is photographic evidence in several books.

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 Post subject: Re: The B&O RR Museum's 1856 William Mason - overhaul and li
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:10 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 2787
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Kelly Anderson wrote:
softwerkslex wrote:
How old is the current boiler?

I understand that it dates from 1927, built for the Fair of the Iron Horse by B&O apprentices. It was assembled with a hump in the middle. The jacket frame holds the jacket only about 5/8" off the boiler at the wagon top, to make the boiler appear straight.


I won't say you're wrong, but that seems a bit unusual--not so much for the expenditure for a new boiler (the B&O even built replicas from the ground up for the 1927 exhibit and other occasions), but for the idea that it would have been built new for only 65 or 75 psi (I've seen sources with either pressure listed as the current pressure). Chances are the pressure would have been well over 100 psi in service; the famous General of the W&A, built at about the same time, supposedly worked around 140 psi.

That low pressure--which is also what a number of other engines in the collection have had (such as the 600 and the 147--a 2-6-0 and 4-6-0 respectively) suggests concerns about an old boiler, possibly of iron construction.

http://www.csa-railroads.com/Essays/Spe ... eneral.htm

Gary Gray wrote:
Mason used wagon top boilers as well as straight boilers prior to the Civil war. There is photographic evidence in several books.


Indeed that's true. It's just that I was under the impression that Mason was more associated with straight top rather than wagon top boilers. . .that eye of his for flowing lines, you know!

And yes, all the available photos I've seen of the engine. . .which only go back to 1927, it seems--do show the wagon top boiler it has now.

I wonder if there are any older photos of the engine around, specifically prior to its retirement in 1892. No matter what the engine looked like, they would be a treasure.


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 Post subject: Re: The B&O RR Museum's 1856 William Mason - overhaul and li
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:37 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 2787
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Got me looking up older pix of No. 25

These look to be at an exhibition in the late 1930s, maybe "Railroads on Parade" as part of the New York World's Fair of 1939-1940:
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/loc ... 0902015807

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/loc ... 0902015234

As the General in Disney's "The Great Locomotive Chase:"

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/loc ... 0225205555

In a scene from "Gods and Generals:"

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/loc ... 0503164532

As most of us remember her--and take note of the C&O 4-8-4 in the background.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/loc ... 0224221702

Postcard image, possibly from the 1950s:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/73 ... 881434.jpg

This is cool--under an earlier overhaul in 2013. The boiler looks like it has butt-seam longitudinal joints, but I have to say the welt plates look awfully narrow!

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/loc ... 0222223823


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 Post subject: Re: The B&O RR Museum's 1856 William Mason - overhaul and li
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:48 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:56 pm
Posts: 76
There was an old photo or illustration I remember of a sister B&O engine #26 in an issue of the B&OHS magazine featuring an article on the Mason about the time of its restoration in the late 90s. It was also a Mason and showed a wagon top boiler.


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 Post subject: Re: The B&O RR Museum's 1856 William Mason - overhaul and li
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:36 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8029
Location: Baltimore, MD
Quote:
I won't say you're wrong, but that seems a bit unusual--not so much for the expenditure for a new boiler (the B&O even built replicas from the ground up for the 1927 exhibit and other occasions), but for the idea that it would have been built new for only 65 or 75 psi (I've seen sources with either pressure listed as the current pressure). Chances are the pressure would have been well over 100 psi in service; the famous General of the W&A, built at about the same time, supposedly worked around 140 psi.

It's also possible that the 1927 B&O boilermakers--or more specifically their supervisors--"cheapened out" on the new boiler, "knowing" that they only had to keep this thing running through the Fair of the Iron Horse towing a couple old wooden cars around on display, not keeping a schedule to Cumberland or D.C. You don't need speed, you don't need power, and you're only kicking it down the road for another couple years, right? Think in terms of a movie prop and not a piece of motive power, and of course building a 75-psi boiler makes sense. And it might also explain why the crownsheet is now thin.

Now, of course, had this only been a 75-psi boiler, I have a nagging feeling we would have heard about it by now from the various sources that worked on her for movie work and museum display. But, then again, maybe not--it's not exactly a detail you publicize, and it may indeed have been a discrete secret disseminated only on a "need-to-know" basis.


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 Post subject: Re: The B&O RR Museum's 1856 William Mason - overhaul and li
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:11 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 1920
Location: Northern Illinois
J3a-614 wrote:

I won't say you're wrong, but that seems a bit unusual--not so much for the expenditure for a new boiler (the B&O even built replicas from the ground up for the 1927 exhibit and other occasions), but for the idea that it would have been built new for only 65 or 75 psi (I've seen sources with either pressure listed as the current pressure). Chances are the pressure would have been well over 100 psi in service; the famous General of the W&A, built at about the same time, supposedly worked around 140 psi.

That low pressure--which is also what a number of other engines in the collection have had (such as the 600 and the 147--a 2-6-0 and 4-6-0 respectively) suggests concerns about an old boiler, possibly of iron construction.


I note with interest that this must be a boiler with crown bars; a style long obsolete by the time the 1927 replica was built. To my way of thinking, the easiest way to get this project through the shop with minimum time, expense, and discussion with the executive suite, would be to simply use the old drawings... even if they were over sixty years old. This would ensure that the replica did indeed look like the original. Numbers would have been run to ensure that the boiler met current code, even if that meant choosing a working pressure far below what the then currently accepted standard was. So long as the pressure appeared to allow for the limited display service desired, what's not to like? Nobody appearantly felt the need to prove they could take an old design and 'make it better,' they had already proven that hundreds of times over on other engines.

That's a concept maybe our present day preservationists should pay more attention to.

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 Post subject: Re: The B&O RR Museum's 1856 William Mason - overhaul and li
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:03 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1181
Location: Strasburg, PA
J3a-614 wrote:
I won't say you're wrong, but that seems a bit unusual--not so much for the expenditure for a new boiler (the B&O even built replicas from the ground up for the 1927 exhibit and other occasions), but for the idea that it would have been built new for only 65 or 75 psi (I've seen sources with either pressure listed as the current pressure). Chances are the pressure would have been well over 100 psi in service; the famous General of the W&A, built at about the same time, supposedly worked around 140 psi.

As I recall, the machinery was the weak link. We tested the main and side rods, and they came back as wrought iron. By plugging the average tensile strength of wrought iron into the formulas and reverse engineering from there was how we arrived at the working pressure mentioned. The 1927 boiler itself may well have been designed for a considerably higher pressure, but higher pressure couldn't be used without overloading the machinery (at least to Baldwin's circa 1940's factors of safety).

The crown sheet is supported by crown bars, but poorly designed with poor circulation and many scale traps. It was the weak link of the boiler in 1998, but was still thick enough for service, though not overly so. There was no call from the owners to upgrade the crown sheet at that time, and since it was still stronger than the main rods, it was left in service, with the understanding that it would have to be replaced before too many more years.

Edit: I pulled her Form 4. The boiler number is listed as B&O SPL #3, with a build date of 1926.

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