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 Post subject: UP 4014 Boiler Work
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:29 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:41 pm
Posts: 375
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Just took a look at the UP steam page and there is a photo of the inside of the firebox, what looks like inside the combustion chamber. The sheets appear to be recessed at each stay bolt location. I have never seen this before. Anyone know anything about this practice? Here's the link to the UP page.
http://www.up.com/cs/groups/public/@upr ... crerar.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: UP 4014 Boiler Work
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:42 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2065
Location: Northern Illinois
Look again. While some of the holes do have circular marks caused by de-burring, the heavy shadows are cast by little welded on cinder, or in this case sand deflectors, apparently to keep the staybolt heads from getting cinder cut.

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 Post subject: Re: UP 4014 Boiler Work
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:47 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:15 am
Posts: 456
Dennis,

The deflectors, was/is that normal for larger steamers, just oil burners, or UP?

Rich C.


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 Post subject: Re: UP 4014 Boiler Work
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:42 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:41 pm
Posts: 375
Location: Minneapolis, MN
The only other large oil burner I have seen the inside of the firebox is ATSF 2926 which, if memory serves did not have these deflectors when the restoration started and does not have them now (yet). Do those deflectors have a significant lifetime or do they have to be renewed fairly often? I note that this must be UP practice because the ATSF 2926 does not have them, or at least no longer has them.


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 Post subject: Re: UP 4014 Boiler Work
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:08 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2065
Location: Northern Illinois
crij wrote:
Dennis,

The deflectors, was/is that normal for larger steamers, just oil burners, or UP?

Rich C.


You are asking the wrong guy... I know what they are, but who used them, and the arguments pro and con, are way beyond my level of expertise.

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 Post subject: Re: UP 4014 Boiler Work
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:07 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:14 pm
Posts: 53
Well since they are removing that sheet, its important to remember 4014 is still a coal burner until the conversion is done....so I would assume those are cinder guards to keep from wearing away staybolt heads with coal cinders. Could be a UP thing.


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 Post subject: Re: UP 4014 Boiler Work
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:16 pm 

Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:00 pm
Posts: 42
Yes, cinder guards, from a previous TO discussion, I think.


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 Post subject: Re: UP 4014 Boiler Work
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:17 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 2423
Tails wrote:
Well since they are removing that sheet, its important to remember 4014 is still a coal burner until the conversion is done....so I would assume those are cinder guards to keep from wearing away staybolt heads with coal cinders. Could be a UP thing.


That's pretty much the only logical explanation. Cinders are pretty much a constant thing, and with a boiler that large, you're going to have an awful lot of them, especially if you burn a lower grade coal.

As for an oil burner? If you're sanding out often enough to generate any kind of appreciable wear on the staybolt heads, you have some significant issues!


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 Post subject: Re: UP 4014 Boiler Work
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:02 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:34 pm
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
I too had to look at the photo closely to understand what I was looking at. What is in the photo are little half moon shields welded(?) on the plate surface to deflect the flow of gases from the firebox, correct? And some of them are missing or already removed.

Never see that before, in photos or life. Is it an after-build modification by UP?

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 Post subject: Re: UP 4014 Boiler Work
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:39 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
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The engine was/is a heavy burner, I read a story where when the burning was going well the stoker was on full the fire would lift off the grates, the coal would be fully burnt by the time it fell to the grates. A lot of air movement on this chugger. I don't know if the deflectors would be needed on oil burning but thats open for debate. Yes looks like the little half moon bumps at the staybolts.


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 Post subject: Re: UP 4014 Boiler Work
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:04 am 

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:35 am
Posts: 98
Location: Strasburg, Pa.
The "half moon" is a bead of weld meant to act as a cinder shield to protect the heads of the staybolts on coal burners. I have seen it on several large locomotives of different railroads. I do not recall seeing that on the smaller engines.

Rick

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 Post subject: Re: UP 4014 Boiler Work
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:32 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:37 pm
Posts: 1052
Location: Pacific, MO
I wondered the same thing when I saw the photo. The way the light hits them, it looks like the staybolt holes are counterbored and it didn't make sense.
When I finally blew it up to study it, I could see that those were the "eyebrows" to deflect cinders past the staybolt heads.
Won't be an issue, even as an oil burner.


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 Post subject: Re: UP 4014 Boiler Work
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:16 pm 

Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:00 pm
Posts: 42
Are they really just a weld bead? I thought they were crescent-shaped pieces of steel strip, something like 3/4" wide strip by 3/16" thick, welded to the sheet?


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 Post subject: Re: UP 4014 Boiler Work
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:33 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:54 am
Posts: 12
Location: Rossville, GA.
Yes, they are strips of square stock, bent to a radius and welded onto the combustion chamber sheet. They were a sacrificial piece that needed periodic renewal to protect the staybolt heads from cinder abrasion. These are fairly common in large coal burning locomotives. This was an Advisory Mechanical Committee practice as welds that I have seen on NKP 765, 779,759, 755, C&O 2716 and others and iirc PM 1225. They were also in use in the B&M 3713 firebox, so we applied them to the new Thermic Syphons we built for the 3713. In the AMC locomotives, they were placed on the upper front third of the syphon body, inside and out, as well as on the crown sheet between the Syphons and forward in to the combustion chamber. The N&W 611 had another form of staybolt head protection with several strips of flat bar welded side to side on the crownsheet, spaced a few feet apart front to back, beginning forward of the transverse Arch tubes.
This practice appears to have worked well for the U. P. 4000's. The bolt heads look perfect.
I'll hazard a guess that these staybolts are being replaced to allow sleeve replacement on the outside.


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 Post subject: Re: UP 4014 Boiler Work
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:49 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:41 pm
Posts: 375
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Thank you, Dr. Bensman, for the definitive explanation! I love theses forums because I am always learning more about these iron beasts.


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