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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:06 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:37 pm
Posts: 22
I am not sure of the distance between these two towns but the best museum runs seem to be, between 5-10 miles in one direction. This makes it easier for revenue, producing, short runs, the public dosen't really want a round trip over 45-60" duration and it's less track, switches, bridges and crossings to maintain/renew. The smart groups OWN their track, have only the absoltue minimum of it and enjoy a class 1 connection. They are quality folks who back up their words with actions, pay their bills on time and are good stewards of the communites they operate in.

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:36 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2050
I was trying to find if Bob Harris had any cars at ITM, a listing check shows 3 cars in Indianapolis. I had been in email contact with him during when he was trying to do the Notre Dame line so he told me where is his stuff was, I have to backtrack my emails.

It looks like ITM is trying to grow out something, when somebody comes along and wants to rip out tracks for a trail ITM is clearly going to balk. Sounds like they are trying to push the trains wherever they can if they can get something going for Logansport, it looks like they are going to fight tooth and nail for the current rail line and their fair train.

I think the rail line owners and the museum need a head to head talk meeting and stop the grinding blaming, but if the trail mongers keep bonking around the museum has to act.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:27 am 

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:27 am
Posts: 387
Location: Winters, TX
BTW, that is a neat transfer table at Logansport. I've never seen one like it.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:05 pm 

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Location: S.F. Bay Area
dinwitty wrote:
They may have actually been gurgling on this for a while, you just don't go off suddenly with an announcement like this without some fore thought and planning ahead.

That hardly stops anyone. It can often be a sign of desperation, like when Carter leaked news of the stealth bomber when called soft on defense.

o anderson wrote:
... there are two branches of the WSRY which are now operated by US Rail and apparently owned by Kokomo Grain. There is a stretch of three miles in the middle which were contested for trackage rights over the TP&W, and it is not clear to me how this was resolved. It may be that the Logansport to Bringhurst leg has some stretches with low traffic volume, and the museum could locate along that. There is a portion between a wye at the TP&W, crossing over a bridge on the Wabash, and going perhaps two miles to a couple of businesses...


You don't want ANY traffic volume. If your trains ply active freight track, your museum has to comply with nearly the full gamut of FRA regulations, and that is a heavy burden when you don't have a unique offering like FairTrain or a fall big event or Santa to write the mid-6-digit checks.

AlcoC420 wrote:
The ITM has not operated anything on their trolley line for many years to the best of my knowledge.

I thought they ran their caboose train on it last week. It's all they got left. An around-the-park trolley museum would be a fine thing.

Quote:
The last cars they operated were Chicago "L" cars. There is a privately owned North Shore car in the barn, but I do not know it's current condition. Many of their "L" cars have probably seen their last days.

The "L" cars are in very dilapidated condition, with their canvas rooves long failed and the wood roof boards rotting out. Many of them are now Targas. I could see a museum scavenging the motor gear to power up something like Red Cars.

dinwitty wrote:
I was trying to find if Bob Harris had any cars at ITM, a listing check shows 3 cars in Indianapolis.

His ~1910 parlor car had been stored at Atlanta, but was moved a few years ago. I think he has a couple demotored South Shore motors at Hoosier Valley.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:16 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 4982
robertmacdowell wrote:
dinwitty wrote:


dinwitty wrote:
I was trying to find if Bob Harris had any cars at ITM, a listing check shows 3 cars in Indianapolis.

His ~1910 parlor car had been stored at Atlanta, but was moved a few years ago. I think he has a couple demotored South Shore motors at Hoosier Valley.


Bob has CSS&SB cars 4 and 31 at HVRM.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:26 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:27 am
Posts: 387
Location: Winters, TX
Are there any trolley guys left at ITM? Seems like it's been awhile since anything has been done with the trolleys.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:02 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:54 am
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Location: Califoothills / Midwest Prairies
When I visited in the early 2000s, Doc Blackburn and another gent were finishing the touches on their new small barn for the Singer engine. I believe he was the last great traction leader in the organization.
https://indianafuneralcare.com/obituary/Dr-Blackburn

It is possible that the Overhead and Third Rail collection, later the Rail Foundation, that was at Noblesville, have all been moved to other locations.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:16 am 

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:28 am
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Location: Suffolk, UK
o anderson wrote:
When I visited in the early 2000s, Doc Blackburn and another gent were finishing the touches on their new small barn for the Singer engine. I believe he was the last great traction leader in the organization.
https://indianafuneralcare.com/obituary/Dr-Blackburn

It is possible that the Overhead and Third Rail collection, later the Rail Foundation, that was at Noblesville, have all been moved to other locations.


I called in at the ITM in 2012 whilst touring round various museums and railroad sites in Indiana & Ohio.
The "small barn" contained the singer loco (in good condition) and a horsecar body in a fairly poor, but restorable, state.

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The condition of the Chicago El stock can be seen in the photo below...

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I did, at least, get a short ride on their rail operation as it was shuttling between the town centre and the museum due to a car rally being held in the park.

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:23 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:34 pm
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Location: Union, IL
70000 wrote:
The condition of the Chicago El stock can be seen in the photo below...

The car in the foreground is 4454, which ITM operated during the 1980s but was then sidelined; behind it is 4293, which was the last electric car to operate at ITM back around 1998 or 1999. The latter car had some work done on it around 2001-2002, including a roof job and some steel replacement work on one end, but at some point that work was abandoned and later the car was moved out of the barn and put outside. It's looking a bit rough (2015 photo at https://www.flickr.com/photos/n8myc/21080831090/ ) but the 4293 is probably still in the best condition of any of the museum's electric passenger collection. To my knowledge the only other electrics ever to run at ITM were North Shore 172, now stored indoors in poor but complete condition, and CA&E 308, sold to IRM in 1996 and now in regular operation in Union.

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:48 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
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Frank -

Thanks for the info and to 70000 for the photos. I had wondered about the status of the CNS&M interurban. The third car in the string of CTA equipment is painted yellow and I assume it's a CTA service car. Many, many years ago, I made a visit to Noblesville and the wife and I rode on one of those CTA cars. I remember that the wire had a rather large "hanging loop" but the car seemed to operate under it okay. The ride wasn't very long as I recall. Anyone know the length of that ITM electric operation?

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:25 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:44 am
Posts: 142
Les Beckman wrote:
The ride wasn't very long as I recall. Anyone know the length of that ITM electric operation?


Judging from the Google map, about 2/3 mile.

But the ride was occasionally longer. For several years there were grooves in the pavement where the cars had run off the end of the line at the bottom of the hill, and rolled through the dirt and across the street.

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:36 pm 

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:28 am
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Location: Suffolk, UK
Les Beckman wrote:
Frank -

Thanks for the info and to 70000 for the photos. I had wondered about the status of the CNS&M interurban. The third car in the string of CTA equipment is painted yellow and I assume it's a CTA service car.
Les


I did actually take a photo of that car as well on my visit to the museum (though it was in a bit of a state) .......

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It is number S 355 from what I can see painted on the car sides. There appears to be another yellow car lurking in the background beyond the "mystery vehicle" behind this car as well.

The only other traction item there which was photographable (apart from a couple of electric locos) was this interurban car body...

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Most of the stock was fairly well packed in on the site, so photography was a bit difficult. However, from my notes, we appear to have spent 4 hours at the Museum (and the car show) before pressing on to Dayton, OH, from there.

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:43 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2069
Location: Northern Illinois
Les Beckman wrote:
Frank -

Thanks for the info and to 70000 for the photos. I had wondered about the status of the CNS&M interurban. The third car in the string of CTA equipment is painted yellow and I assume it's a CTA service car...

Les


Yes, and the S prefix number (S-355) confirms it. Until the CTA got rid of the last of the air brake cars, they were pretty consistent on painting the service fleet yellow... Commuters are pretty clueless, but trainable, and they were eventually trained that they couldn't board the yellow trains. Many of these 4000 series cars were "mules", motive power for the material trains that went out at night to lay out material for track and footwalk renewal on the "L" structure, and were pretty much unmodified other than paint. Some had some seats removed to make space for lockers, etc.

I see the S-355 in the photo still has Stearns & Ward couplers... the CTA never had one standard coupler for the fleet until after the air brake cars left. I wonder how many groups thought to acquire the S&W to Van Dorn adapter links, and how many have been lost through the years? I bet they are as rare as hen's teeth now.

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:13 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2440
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Randall Hicks wrote:
But the ride was occasionally longer. For several years there were grooves in the pavement where the cars had run off the end of the line at the bottom of the hill, and rolled through the dirt and across the street.

It could be much worse. The downhill grade could end at a pole.

Or a bumper stop.

This is the streetcars longing to continue around the loop which that park *ought to* have. What's more, enough of the NKP should be preserved so the park shuttle can proceed into Noblesville proper.

70000 wrote:
Most of the stock was fairly well packed in on the site, so photography was a bit difficult. However, from my notes, we appear to have spent 4 hours at the Museum (and the car show) before pressing on to Dayton, OH, from there.


That's about right, especially if you can get the 50 cent tour of the shop. Quite a collection.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:14 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:34 pm
Posts: 621
Location: Union, IL
70000 wrote:
The only other traction item there which was photographable (apart from a couple of electric locos) was this interurban car body...

That's Union Traction Company 437, the "Marion," a classic steel interurban combine built in 1925 by St. Louis. ITM actually has two cars from this series: the 437 - which despite being stored outside for decades is actually in pretty decent shape for a car body - and another car whose original number is unknown to me because way back in time IMOTAC (later ITM) sandblasted it and painted it as UTC 429, the "Noblesville." The "429" is in rather good condition, as bodies go, and is stored inside the barn on correct C80P trucks.

Photo: http://madisonrails.railfan.net/2002/utc429-6.JPG

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