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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:44 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:33 am
Posts: 61
Location: Batavia, Ohio
And the plot thickens...........

http://itm.org/indiana-transportation-m ... ogansport/


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:19 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:26 pm
Posts: 10
So are they giving up? Wow, this is a real shock.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:09 pm 

Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 11:27 am
Posts: 418
Location: Switching the Coach Yard
NS 3322 wrote:
So are they giving up? Wow, this is a real shock.


Sometimes hedging your bets LOOKS like giving up....


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:37 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 1996
http://itm.org/museum/equipment-roster/

I had to check some things.

I like this move, it gets it closer to me, it gets the museum closer to the railroad arena and some population knowing more about railroads, its moving to a place that would be friendlier to the museum and represent Logansport's railroad history, the list goes on and on, they may have some solid railroad to run excursions, I'm looking into that now, and they have the NKP 587 in restoration now. Noblesville is going to lose something and lose something big.

Maybe Logansport can bring back their Iron Horse Festival with the arrival of the ITM.

This is seriously big news.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:55 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:17 pm
Posts: 123
I don't know where they are going to run.

G&W would not let the 765 cross their railroad to run on the Winamac Southern a few years ago and G&W would not even let the Marquette Rail run their Santa train after they took over that line. There is also a very strong chance that G&W will take over the operations of the Winamac Southern lines.

Were is all this money coming from?

They can not even clean up the property in Forest Park.

Some people need to get real here.

You can go back and check a few things about their other plans. At one time they were going to Frankfort, Indiana and use the old NKP roundhouse and shop. Would have been an ideal place for a shop, but that died a hard death.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:17 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 1996
I am looking over things. NICTD/South Shore is expanding to Dyre, I'm just looking over whats going on out there right now. Logansport is NE of Lafayette indiana.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:47 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 1996
NS 3322 wrote:
So are they giving up? Wow, this is a real shock.


They may have actually been gurgling on this for a while, you just don't go off suddenly with an announcement like this without some fore thought and planning ahead. When the locals are running animosity, it may be better to get out, they have a collection to protect, you don't want to see scrappers suddenly running in and you know what. They would be going to somewhere they are wanted.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:13 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 1996
Image

heres a map to jolly around on, showing a railroad yard practically downtown, I presume this is the PRR yard, this looks like a very early map.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:25 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:26 pm
Posts: 10
On Facebook they replied to someone with a question about the move:

"ITM still intends to pursue operations along the Nickel Plate line. This opportunity allows us to continue to serve the State of Indiana, despite current circumstances. This partnership ultimately allows us to meet our purpose of preserving the collection and engaging communities regarding Indiana's railroad history." -Indiana Transportation Museum


Is there a place to run trains in Logansport?


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:37 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:54 am
Posts: 786
Location: Califoothills / Midwest Prairies
I researched this a bit this morning, and it seems that there are lots of resources in Logansport, but it is hard to say how things might pan out there.
If you have to rule out the TP&W and the Norfolk Southern tracks, there are two branches of the WSRY which are now operated by US Rail and apparently owned by Kokomo Grain. There is a stretch of three miles in the middle which were contested for trackage rights over the TP&W, and it is not clear to me how this was resolved. It may be that the Logansport to Bringhurst leg has some stretches with low traffic volume, and the museum could locate along that. There is a portion between a wye at the TP&W, crossing over a bridge on the Wabash, and going perhaps two miles to a couple of businesses, that may be pretty available. I imagine this line would be interchanging actively with the N&W a bit south of there. Few facilities for a museum are seen on this stretch.

In downtown Logansport there is a large machine shop, erecting shop with transfer table, and turntable with some covered storage stalls, that all seem to be part of a large Transco Railway Products facility. This would make a great museum, plus operations south on the line from there to Marion. Somehow I think this scenario is less likely to pan out.

I wonder what all this means for the significant trolley museum operation that is at the park in Noblesville? The Indiana Museum of Transportation and Communciation, as it used to be called, seemed to start out with trolleys as their focus, then steam railroads secondarily. There are a lot of resources and built facilities that would be hard to reconstruct somewhere else. Perhaps this museum should split internally, with the trolley folks and steam/diesel folks going their separate ways? Otherwise, there probably will be a lot of interurban and rapid transit equipment available soon.. if any move happened. And some of that equipment was owned (abandoned?) by Bob Harris, from what I recall.
O.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:39 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:17 pm
Posts: 123
The ITM has not operated anything on their trolley line for many years to the best of my knowledge.
The last cars they operated were Chicago "L" cars. There is a privately owned North Shore car in the barn, but I do not know it's current condition. Many of their "L" cars have probably seen their last days.
Bob Harris owned some South Shore equipment, but that has never operated at ITM. Current condition and ownership is unknown.

While there was an agreement made that allows US Rail to have trackage rights on the short stretch between TP&W owned and Kokomo Grain owned trackage, that is more then likely for freight only.

TP&W/ G&W own the west end/half of the eighteenth street yard. As I said in an earlier post, G&W would not allow the 765 to cross this short section, so they could run some trips in Kokomo. The 765 did run some trips in Kokomo, but that was when the TP&W was owned by RailAmerica.

As for Transco. The old PRR backshop is a major car repair facility for them, with them heavy in to auto racks.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:17 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 1996
Bob Harris is still trying to get the park service to do the planned beach line with his remaining South Shore cars as the earlier park service cars were donated to East Troy.

Then I found this.

http://www.wibc.com/news/local-news/tra ... muter-line

Quote:
Train Operator's New Hub in Logansport Stirs Dreams of Central Indiana Commuter Line
Transportation Museum's second home doesn't affect legal battle over State Fair Train


The operator of the State Fair Train is getting a second home, and positioning itself to revive commuter rail in central Indiana.

The Indiana Transportation Museum is expanding to Logansport, moving some of its trains there with an eye to eventually launching train service to Indianapolis. Logansport Mayor Dave Kitchell says that route would let people commute to work while taking advantage of low housing prices north of the Indy suburbs. He says more than half Cass County's residents already work outside the county -- a train could open up a wider orbit of jobs, and reduce traffic jams on U.S. 31.

Logansport has a deep railroad history dating back a century. In the heyday of the Pennsylvania Railroad, Kitchell says Logansport had more routes than any Indiana city except Indy, thanks to its location around the halfway point between Indy and South Bend, Fort Wayne and Lafayette, and Cincinnati and Chicago. Most famously, it was a stop on the fabled "Wabash Cannonball" route from Detroit to Saint Louis.

Kitchell and museum board chairman John McNichols caution a commuter train remains a long-term goal. There's an almost complete route from Indy to Logansport, but with a gap at Tipton that would have to be filled to complete the connection.

The agreement doesn't affect the Fair Train, which remains in limbo after a Hamilton County agency shut it down on safety grounds. The Noblesville-based museum has sued to restart service, contending federal inspections contradict any notion of a safety risk.


gets curiouser


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:22 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 1996
now this just came down the railchicago newswire

Quote:
1. Transportation museum denied restraining order against railroad auth
Posted by: "Dennis Parejko" railchicago@sbcglobal.net railchicago@sbcglobal.net
Date: Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:37 am ((PDT))


Transportation museum denied restraining order against railroad authority Indianapolis Business Journal
The Indiana Transportation Museum has been denied in its request for a federal temporary restraining order against the Hoosier Heritage Port Authority.Judge Jane Magnus-Stinson of the U.S. District Court in the Southern District of Indiana denied the museum’s petition in a ruling issued Thursday.The museum sought the order in an attempt to regain use of the Nickel Plate rail line in time to run excursion trains during next month’s Indiana State Fair.Magnus-Stinson said the museum did not make “an adequate showing under applicable law that a temporary restraining order is warranted.”The Noblesville-based museum and area officials have been wrestling over the future of the 37-mile railroad for months. Noblesville and Fishers are seeking to convert a section of the rail corridor into a pedestrian trail, but the museum argues the rails should remain and that it should be able to operate trains along it.The Hoosier Heritage Port Authority, the quasi-government entity that oversees the railroad, terminated its policy-of-use agreement with the museum in March 2016 amid concerns about the not-for-profit’s financial condition and maintenance of the tracks.That meant the museum had to discontinue its popular State Fair Train and Polar Bear Express rides last year.The port authority issued a request for proposals for a new operator of the track, and responses were received last month. Several groups submitted responses, including the transportation museum, the Indianapolis Metropolitan Railway Co. of Indianapolis, Hoosier Heritage Railroad Inc. of Fishers and Nickel Plate Heritage Railroad of Arcadia.The authority had been expected to discuss the proposals Monday night. However, it delayed the discussion until next week.Museum officials said a restraining order was needed to stop the port authority from destroying the rail tracks, evicting the museum from its home in Forest Park and granting approval to a new track operator through the RFP.The museum sought an expedited order that would rescind the authority’s suspension of museum trains.“If successful, the suit could allow the beloved State Fair Train, the Polar Bear Express Train and future excursion trains to run on the Nickel Plate tracks,” the museum said earlier this week.Magnus-Stinson said the museum did not meet the requirements or follow the procedures necessary to obtain a restraining order.The museum argued that it would suffer “imminent and irreparable injury if Hoosier Heritage is not restrained from prohibiting it from operating the 2017 State Fair Train.”But the judge said the ongoing dispute between the parties is at least a year old and should have been addressed through other means instead of with an expedited order that would give Hoosier Heritage no notice or time to argue its case.“Lack of time to give the other side notice is both disingenuous in this case and invalid,” she said.The museum filed a tort-claim notice last month against the authority, Noblesville and Fishers. In it, the museum said it lost more than $350,000 in revenue because it couldn't operate the Polar Bear Express. It also says it lost another $150,000 when it was prohibited from operating the Indiana State Fair Train.

inShare RAILChicago.net


I was just told the tracks were apparently in unsafe condition to the museum but the museum responded back the tracks were fine at the speeds they ran.

This is looking like another trail grab scenario.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:38 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:54 am
Posts: 786
Location: Califoothills / Midwest Prairies
Trail grab is a possibility, but if there is a lessor for the line, I am sure the positive cash flow would be welcome by the agency owning the track.

Seems like, in any case, there are a lot of dreams being floated about. Hope that some good ideas are met with good plans and funding.

RE: Bob Harris, there were many plans and perhaps something will come of it. I would love to ride on a heritage car on the South Shore Line, even if it were just once a year or on special occasions. Running a car at speed on 1200V would be great as well. As far as background on Bob's dreams, I have found this, update to news from the last 10 years or so:
2006:
http://articles.southbendtribune.com/2006-07-22/news/26957705_1_rail-line-rail-service-railroad-ties
Quote:
Robert S. Harris, the head of a company planning to reopen a dormant railroad line through South Bend, has been a railroad buff for decades.

Harris spearheaded an effort in the 1990s to establish Trolley to the Dunes, a rail service planned for Michigan City using vintage South Shore commuter cars. The proposal died after failing to get the backing of Michigan CityÂ?s mayor.

That experience didnÂ?t curb HarrisÂ? railroad enthusiasm. HeÂ?s continuing to pursue a plan to re-establish rail service on a Norfolk Southern line that runs from South BendÂ?s west side to the University of Notre Dame.

Â?We have a contract and a closing date. We want to make this a win-win situation,Â? Harris said in a telephone interview from Colorado.


November 2015:
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/porter/historic-south-shore-proposal-changes-track/article_700f5e69-6b15-594e-abbc-21525be862a1.html
Quote:
A proposal of using historic South Shore train cars to transport tourists between the Indiana Dunes State Park, nearby communities and a visitor center is being scaled back in the face of an $84 million price tag.

The new approach calls for creating a moving historic South Shore display on a single piece of land at an estimated cost of about $7 million, according to Indiana Dunes Tourism Executive Director Lorelei Weimer.

But there are still plenty of obstacles to overcome, not the least of which is raising the necessary funding, said Richard Riley, co-owner of Riley's Railhouse bed and breakfast in Chesterton and president of The South Shore Line Heritage Foundation.

"It's a big task and it's going to take some time to get this done," he said.

The South Shore Line Heritage Foundation is taking the lead on the project, which has been proposed in various forms for many years, according to a $19,000 transportation study completed recently on behalf of and the expense of a coalition made up of Chesterton, Porter, Porter County Board of Commissioners and Indiana Dunes Tourism.

The proposal faced several major obstacles before the cost was even factored in, including crossing four major freight rail lines and a number of busy highways, the study states.

Weimer, who presented the findings to the Porter County Board of Commissioners last week, said a collector has been attempting to donate rail and several old South Shore passenger cars for the project, including one wooden car from the 1920s.


Later that month in 2015:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/post-tribune/news/ct-ptb-train-collector-st-1129-20151127-story.html
Quote:
Bob Harris has a thing about the South Shore.

In the late 1970s, a documentary he did about the region for WTTW Channel 11, Chicago's PBS affiliate, lead to a desire to see old South Shore cars run between Michigan City and Mount baldy in the Indiana Dunes National Lakeshore, and between Gary and West Beach, also in the national park...

...By the mid-1990s, he'd also acquired a mile of Norfolk Southern track, all toward the goal of helping establish that rail project.

But the plan to run the cars never left the station and the cars have been in storage in various places since, Harris said. Though he won't say where the cars are to protect them, the 1908 car is 80 percent restored and is in Murphysboro, Ill.

"The South Shore Line is like the cable cars of San Francisco. They're that important, and people would come from all over to ride them," he said.

There is a glimmer of that old project coming to light. Indiana Dunes Tourism, the Porter County Board of Commissioners, the South Shore Line Heritage Foundation, and the towns of Chesterton and Porter commissioned a feasibility study on the options and costs for bringing old South Shore rail cars back to this area as a tourist attraction.

One possibility outlined in the study is to connect Chesterton, Porter and Indiana Dunes State Park but at $84 million, officials have said that option is too costly.

Instead, those involved with the project would like to see train cars moving on a limited track, which would cost $7 million. The feasibility study suggests setting up the project at the Indiana Dunes Visitors Center on Indiana 49 because of the amount of property available.....


I hope something good does happen and these cars get a fitting, operating home.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Files Lawsuit
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:15 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:15 pm
Posts: 121
This is a highly unlikely thing but there is the old NKP line from Kokomo to Frankfort that isnt shown to be a working rail line on google maps. I traced the entire line from Frankfort all the way to Kokomo and the line is quite intact. There are a few issues with this line however, and that is replacing the amount of crossings between Frankfort and Kokomo, and fixing a few bridges. Looks kinda like the state that the Rio Grande Tennessee pass is in; abandoned, some issues with fixing the track, but could definitely be fixed.


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