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 Post subject: Re: Former CPR Mikado in Depew, New York
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:13 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:07 pm
Posts: 1037
Location: Leicester, MA.
Richard Glueck wrote:
If the CPR Mikado 5361 is going to be saved, this forum is likely to get the word out first. I suggest readers and concerned parties either contact some celebrity with deep, expendable funds, or start pooling their funds, to the tune of about $200,000. These are not easily solved problems.


Dick, I think the word is already out... But it's out theoretically soon enough for us to organize. As I see it there's a few big questions that would require answers;

1) Who is going to be doing the saving?
2) When and if 5361 is saved from the torch, where does she find safe harbor?
3) What is going to be the best method to raise the requisite funding for the endeavor?
3) WHAT is the exact cause that the donor's money is going to and WHY is it important?

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 Post subject: Re: Former CPR Mikado in Depew, New York
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:20 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8822
Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
With regard to the suggested value of 5361, 643, 614, "NH 3025," H&BT 38, et al:

The supposed dollar value of a potentially operable steam locomotive is intricately tied to its utility value. That is, the cost to move, overhaul, certify, and routinely operate such a locomotive in a commercial setting.

A larger steam locomotive is going to cost more in all those parameters than a smaller one. It weighs more to haul out, eats more fuel, consumes more grease, wears out more flues, wears out the track, etc.

For MOST "commercial" excursion operations in 2018, a small, compact 2-6-0--think Strasburg's 89 or Everett's 11 or the Arcade & Attica's power--is perfect: not too big, not fuel-hungry, gets to put on a show of work, blows the whistle, etc. A small 2-8-0 also can fit in some cases. Wilmington & Western gets by with a 4-4-0 and an 0-6-0.

The number of excursion lines that "need" larger power is small--Western Maryland Scenic RR (and then only in the fall, for the most part), Grand Canyon Ry, etc.--and even they have "spares" sitting about or not enough manpower. Even Strasburg doesn't really "need" a light Decapod. And many of the line that "need" bigger power have gone diesel--Conway Scenic, for example, or New Hope and Ivyland (with a compact 4-8-4 still languishing).

5361 fits that "larger" category--a huskier 2-8-2, more than most lines need. In addition, it's going to be hard and expensive to get out of its current location.

And as discussed here many times, 614, 643, etc. are just far too large for any "normal" excursion line to operate viably, and there's no alternative market for their services--no mainline steam program, no lease of a mainline, no "Plandampf," etc.

Another analogy: "Monster Truck" lifted 4x4's, fast speedboats, and souped-up vintage cars are cool to look at and see in action now and then, but they're completely NOT "daily drivers," and as a result they, too, are "money pits" for the owners.


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 Post subject: Re: Former CPR Mikado in Depew, New York
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:26 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5476
Location: southeastern USA
Absolutely. Erik did a great article a few years back about how 6-coupled steam is what works very well for the majority of us. Small is also easier to provide with fuel, work on, house, maintain and move not under is own power. The little prairie or mogul is probably going to sell for more as a locomotive than the 2-10-4 but recoup much less as scrap.

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 Post subject: Re: Former CPR Mikado in Depew, New York
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:47 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:31 am
Posts: 474
She is well-suited for Steamtown, which unfortunately has no need for her; Canadian steam is already well represented in the collection and I see no reason to shelve the proposed restoration of 3377 in favor of 5361.

Unless there is a "man and a plan" out there, I think the best fate is to stick her on a slab near the Falls and keep her with us until she's needed again. Which could be a long, long time. Even doing that is going to take substantial effort and cubic dollars.


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 Post subject: Re: Former CPR Mikado in Depew, New York
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:42 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 3912
Location: Maine
It's not for me to dip into another man's pockets, yet Jeff Bezos personal wealth fell by $14 billion yesterday, and he is still the 19th best funded billionaire in America. It's about interest and priorities.
The thing about 643 that has no dollar value is awe. Seeing her steam up Horseshoe Curve would be a sight of awe. Sadly, I doubt you can recoup enough buck to pay for that alone.

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Last edited by Richard Glueck on Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Former CPR Mikado in Depew, New York
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:38 pm 
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Location: Orrville, OH
To put it simply, you could consider an unrestored locomotive's value as the net $$$ you'll get after you pay someone to cut it up and haul it away to a scrapyard. That ain't much.

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 Post subject: Re: Former CPR Mikado in Depew, New York
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:03 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:40 am
Posts: 213
I've seen and read before that 6 coupled are the most ideal steamers. However, Is there not 2 RDG 4-8-4's being rebuilt as we speak? One of them runs on a short line freight RR and sometimes possibly over NS if the cards fall just the right way. Is Kentucky Steam not going to be running fairly large locos on former CSX mountainous terrain?

The asking prices are steep but both 5361 and 643 could be bought and then used as puns to get another equally large loco out of one of the museums that wont budge without something substantial to replace the artifact in question. Either 5361 or 643 for RDG 2124 which is the only one of the T-1 type with roller bearings. Or 643 for say N&W 2156. The N&W water tender would be right at home behind this beauty the 2156.

Robert


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 Post subject: Re: Former CPR Mikado in Depew, New York
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:40 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:31 am
Posts: 474
I don't think 2124 is going anywhere. She is reportedly a fairly poor candidate for a return to operation and as a regionally important road name, I think the park service would be negligent to their mission in letting her go.

643 in her stock form is also too long for the turntable at SNHS, although she may have lost a few feet if the tender she is paired with is not her original. Her tractive effort is nearly double what is required for excursion duty and she's just a poor choice for the park.

I just don't see Steamtown as part of the story for either locomotive.


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 Post subject: Re: Former CPR Mikado in Depew, New York
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:16 am 

Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:36 am
Posts: 253
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
It hurts me every time an historic building, bridge, or locomotive goes to scrap and I've personally donated many thousands of hours and tens of thousands of dollars to keep it from happening. However, face it, there just aren't enough people, individually or as a society, with both the resources and willingness to save many items that we would like to save. Some will see it as heresy, but triage is probably the smartest course of action. It makes more sense and is a better use of finite resources to direct efforts towards items with the best chance of restoration or the greatest historic value in order to ensure their long-term existence and viability, and not to give an item a priority only because its in the greatest jeopardy. When the only reasonably predictable outcome is a few-year delay of the inevitable, the best answer may be to cut the loses now and move on.


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 Post subject: Re: Former CPR Mikado in Depew, New York
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:49 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:40 am
Posts: 213
Dick, The same could be have been said for more than one loco that returned to service. CPR 2816 was in poor shape and yet CPR decided to completely rebuild her to running order. The 5361 would have the greatest chance of surviving if CPR decided to buy her. They did look at a 4-8-4 CPR 3101 but like 2816 the 3101 is in very poor condition and would take a lot of effort to restore to running order. 5361 might not be as bad off as the Northern.

Robert


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 Post subject: Re: Former CPR Mikado in Depew, New York
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:03 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5476
Location: southeastern USA
Or, somebody with a use for her could build a reasonable plan and present it with an offer to the owner for his consideration.

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Corollary: "He who does is doomed to watch those who don't repeat it anyway."


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 Post subject: Re: Former CPR Mikado in Depew, New York
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:02 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:04 pm
Posts: 22
Lots of good points made here. Is $100,000 dollars a bad price for a steam locomotive? Not really. How much would a set of drivers cost you if you needed them? What about a set of side rods? How about a tender? I have seen operational and formerly operational steam locomotives sell for anywhere from $500,000 to a cool 1 million.

However much like rusted cars that have been sitting in a field for 50 years, un-restored steam locomotives are big gambles. Anyone who has been following the progress of the C&O 1309 knows what a fiasco that has turned into. Park locomotives are not worth very much. I know of two locomotives in Washington state (one at Battle ground and another at Chahalis) there were both sold from the city for 1 dollar a piece. There is many locomotives sitting in horrible shape in city parks where you could probably buy them very cheaply from the city.

This man who owns this steam locomotive is not thinking clearly. If there is a deadline then he should be taking bids and then selling it to the highest bidder. I am fairly certain he could get 50-60K. Threatening to scrap it makes no sense at all. You want a return in your investment, yet you are willing to let it go to scrappers for pennies on the dollar? Who thinks like this?

As a side note I went to a estate sale yesterday of a train collector. They had for sale none other than the front shield of Big Boy 4022 for $600.00. It was already snatched up but pretty amazing to know someone got it for $600.00.


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 Post subject: Re: Former CPR Mikado in Depew, New York
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:04 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:58 pm
Posts: 910
this stuff is only worth what someone is willing to pay


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 Post subject: Re: Former CPR Mikado in Depew, New York
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:14 am 

Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:33 pm
Posts: 307
Location: Oroville, CA
Tom F. stated, "This man who owns this steam locomotive is not thinking clearly."
Well, yes! This is the typical "hoarder's" attitude about almost any object, " if I can't get $XXXX for it, then nobody gets it, as I will destroy it!" This, of course, goes against any basic attitudes of preservation--but I've seen it many times in various interests. As an example; at a toy train show, the vendor doesn't like the low offer on an item and he (she) says something like, 'Well, if that's all it's worth to you then I ain't selling it!" and proceeds to drop it on the floor and smashes it up. I don't know how anyone can deal with that kind of mind-set, short of having the owner/perpetrator institutionalized! And of course, you can't do that; I'm just expressing my complete exasperation with that kind of situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Former CPR Mikado in Depew, New York
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:39 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:48 pm
Posts: 25
Location: Watchung, NJ
Good evening folks,

I have to ask -- Does anyone have the contact information for locomotive owner ?

I keep reading all the various view points (mine included) and it dawned on me; the one voice missing in this conversation is that of the owner.

So, how does one make contact with the owner?

If someone knows the answer to the question, but doesn't want to post that information in this thread, could someone kindly send me the information via PM? ....

Thanks in advance!

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