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 Post subject: Railway Baggage Coach of Unknown Vintage and Provenance
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:44 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:15 am
Posts: 3
Prince McKenzie, the Executive Director of the El Paso Transportation and Railroad Museum successfully retrieved what appears to be a baggage or express coach from the desert, where it was used as a depression era "mobile home" for a number of decades.

Here is what we know about it, which is precious little:

1. 65 feet long, 20 tons.

2. The undercarriage is made entirely of wood. There is no steel or cast iron its underframe whatsoever.

3. Two sliding door fittings, cast iron, of Chisholm Moore Mfg are extant on the interior. They are not dated.

4. Cast iron bolts that are square, not hexagonal, indicate a possible dating to prior to 1880.

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Is there anyone who can direct us to more information, links, to identify where
this coach may have come from? Most of interest is what is the vintage of this coach???

Is there anyone that can give us an idea of what time period a wood undercarriage coach would have been made? Thank you in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: Railway Baggage Coach of Unknown Vintage and Provenance
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:22 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:43 am
Posts: 746
Doesn't that hanger say MFG-6 of 60? June 1860? I know that seems old. There is a picture on google of that same model hanger that lacks the date.

Doesn't agree with this article, that says Chisholm Moore was founded in 1899.
http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/columbus-mckinnon-corporation-history/. The Moore company supposedly was involved in railcar hardware long before that.

Incidentally, this company lives on in the same company who makes CM hoists, now known as Columbus McKinnon. I bet nearly all of us have seen and used CM branded hoists.


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 Post subject: Re: Railway Baggage Coach of Unknown Vintage and Provenance
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:33 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 11482
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Pegasuspinto wrote:
Doesn't that hanger say MFG-6 of 60? June 1860? I know that seems old. There is a picture on google of that same model hanger that lacks the date.

99.9% probability that says "MFG 'Co" -- as in "Manufacturing Company", a very common abbreviation of the era/type.


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 Post subject: Re: Railway Baggage Coach of Unknown Vintage and Provenance
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:40 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:45 pm
Posts: 300
The casting is one provided by a contractor who cast many such parts.

Edward Y. Moore moved to Cleveland in 1897 and organized the Chisholm & Moore Manufacturing Company, along with Wilson B. Chisholm, one of largest stockholders of the company. Chisholm was also VP of the Cleveland Roller Mills Company.

The company manufactured hoisting equipment, crane trolleys, and malleable iron castings.

Based upon when Chisholm & Moore was founded, the casting is early 1900s. However, the car could predate that since it could be a replacement part. Many cars of this design have a manufacturing name and date in the end door frame, normally on the base. That will likely be the key for part of the history research.


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 Post subject: Re: Railway Baggage Coach of Unknown Vintage and Provenance
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:59 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:15 am
Posts: 3
Ah, this is very interesting. Indeed, it could be an add on during some repair from
a more recent age.

What puzzles me, personally, is that the car measures out to be 65 feet. This seems
particular long for 19th century. Also, the weight, without trucks, was found to be
20 tons when lifted by the crane. Modern two axle bogies weigh about 16 tons
a piece. Say an arch bar truck was half that, as a pure guess, to the entire dry weight
of the care would be about 32 tons for the entire unit. This seems very, very heavy
for a 19th century baggage car.

The 65 foot length of the car does not seem consistent with a 19th century rail car. My understanding is that a 19th century coach would be closer to 40 feet, with respect to the load capacity of 19th century rail.

Am I on the right track, excuse the pun, here??

Not to overstate the obvious, but we are complete green horns in this matter. Our Executive Director has a rather vast experience in modern archeology, but none of
us have ever attempted such an undertaking.

Having scraped up the $20,000 cost to move this car, we are now trying to find corporate sponsors to start in on an estimated $40,000 for its restoration. Personally, I think that number is light, even with sweat equity.


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 Post subject: Re: Railway Baggage Coach of Unknown Vintage and Provenance
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:09 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
Posts: 2041
Location: Southern California
The window arrangement is similar to photos I have seen of some Railway Post Office cars of the 1890 - 1910 era. Your 65' length is not out-of-line for such cars.

Car lengths increased during the last half of the 19th century. This was due to the use truss type wood framing with the car sides and the use of steel truss rods within the car sides besides the ones visible beneath the car.

What are the widths (openings) of the side doors? If these are about 30" then the car is for sure an RPO car at one time. If these are wider than 4' this probably was an RPO car modified when newer cars appeared to be a baggage or express car.

As newer cars were acquired wood-bodied cars were often demoted to non-passenger service in support of maintenance crews.

Railroads often applied the car number to the interior above the end doors. If this area has been painted over, careful sanding through the layers should revel these numbers. This information can then be compared to historic information of the car fleets of the railroads serving El Paso.

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Brian Norden


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 Post subject: Re: Railway Baggage Coach of Unknown Vintage and Provenance
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:30 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:41 pm
Posts: 238
Location: Colfax,WI
If the car was stripped underneath (no hardware) then you will need to make sure that you provide adequate cribbing to support the center of the car or it will sag. Cars of this era were built with a truss rod system that supported the weight without a center reinforcing sill.

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Herb Sakalaucks
Secretary/Treasurer
Colfax Railroad Museum


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 Post subject: Re: Railway Baggage Coach of Unknown Vintage and Provenance
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:06 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:45 pm
Posts: 300
I started going through some old records.

Wooden passenger cars were in the 50-60 foot range through the 1870s and 1880s. By the 1890s, new wooden cars were being made that were 72 feet long, but most were still in the 60-70 foot range. However, baggage cars have generally been shorter than cars that hold people (coaches, sleepers, etc.), often based upon the space needed and the tonnage they could hold. Wooden cars were still being manufactured until the early 1900s. Based upon this, the car in questions could be mid-1880s to about 1910, plus or minus a few years. As stated elsewhere, it could have been downgraded and rebuilt for maintenance service, or for a smaller railroad.

Look for any numbers inside the car, or above the end doors. They sometimes were on the inside of the baggage doors. The end door casting could provide a clue. Just keep noting any detail found and eventually enough parts may give us a clue.


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 Post subject: Re: Railway Baggage Coach of Unknown Vintage and Provenance
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:52 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:34 pm
Posts: 924
Here are some photos of restored and not restored coaches/baggage cars. 1st one is originally built in 1886, baggage car by Barney & Smith.

https://www.midcontinent.org/equipment- ... assenger-z
cars/wisconsin-central-306/

LS&I combine from 1898. While not a baggage car you can study the pictures of any similarities maybe?

https://www.midcontinent.org/equipment- ... hpeming-1/

This last car was built in 1906 as a mail car but there are no pictures of what she looked like originally. But again by comparing maybe you can find some clues of who built your car or who didn't?

https://www.midcontinent.org/equipment- ... ter-photo/

Got quite a project on your hands. With some good leadership and dedicated workers it has been done and can be done again in your case. I am amazed at what the car shop guys have accomplished at MC with the wood coaches as well as other projects they undertake. Some of the most wonderful restorations were nothing but a car body on the ground when they started. Some were not much better but had the wheels and truss rods intact. Good luck to this project and hope it gets indoors so you can work easier. Regards, John.


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