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 Post subject: Ogden RR Museum In Danger?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:01 am 

Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:57 am
Posts: 65
Location: DC Metro Area
Just saw this posted a while ago, it appears so...
http://desertempireproject.blogspot.com ... e.html?m=1


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 Post subject: Re: Ogden RR Museum In Danger?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:46 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:07 am
Posts: 518
According to the information in the linked article, this effort has been going on for some time with minimal progress and it does not take into account the events that will happen in a couple of years when the 150th anniversary of the linking of the rails at Promontory summit takes place.

Bob H


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 Post subject: Re: Ogden RR Museum In Danger?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:06 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:25 am
Posts: 49
Location: Sturtevant Wisconsin
So who owns the equipment...... the City, the Museum group......

Mike Slater
Sturtevant, Wisconsin

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Mike Slater
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Sturtevant, WI


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 Post subject: Re: Ogden RR Museum In Danger?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:10 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2435
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Let's ground our discussion in some facts, before we pass judgment. To better inform the readership, let's look at an August 15 article from the Ogden newspaper:

http://www.standard.net/Local/2017/08/15/Ogden-City-dissolves-Union-Station-agreement-will-take-over-maintenance-of-the-facility

The lease for the land the station sits on expires in 2026. The City was brought in, at the invitation of the foundation, to better manage the property and hopefully get an extension of the lease, among other things.

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 Post subject: Re: Ogden RR Museum In Danger?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:43 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:07 pm
Posts: 136
Location: Utah
The facts of the matter are that Dynamic Rail Preservation was formally evicted last month, and the Golden Spike Chapter R&LHS which occupies the Trainmen's Building on the north was asked to make a full inventory of the tools and materials they own for the restoration of D&RGW 223 under the assumption that at some point in the future they would have to remove them.

The facts of the matter also are that Ogden City presented three conceptual plans, which are described in the Desert Empire Project article, in a public meeting for input. Since that meeting those plans have not been made available online. All three plans detail the complete removal of the rail center, turning the Trainmen's Building into a restaurant and moving only a small portion of the collection to Tracks 1 and 2 on the platform.

Those are the facts relating to the equipment. Those of us who are concerned about the USRM collections want to ensure that Ogden City does not adopt any of those three conceptual plans until a promise is made to leave the rail center as it is.

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The official D&RGW 223 website


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 Post subject: Re: Ogden RR Museum In Danger?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:13 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
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Location: southeastern USA
I'd take advantage of the 9 years to build a pretty good plan B just in case.

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 Post subject: Re: Ogden RR Museum In Danger?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:59 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2435
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Utah Josh wrote:
Those are the facts relating to the equipment. Those of us who are concerned about the USRM collections want to ensure that Ogden City does not adopt any of those three conceptual plans until a promise is made to leave the rail center as it is.


At what cost? What if leaving the rail center as-is, including the interior museum space means that Union Station can't be financially viable, and thus less impetus to renegotiate a lease extension or purchase the property? Then what good is it?

How many visitors does USRM have annually?

Does USRM envision having to develop an alternate plan for relocation? If so, why hasn't USRM management been proactive in this field?

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 Post subject: Re: Ogden RR Museum In Danger?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:16 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2435
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Also, to add some information to the discussion:

The Utah State Railroad Museum Authority (USRRM) is an independent state agency of the State of Utah, and is enacted and governed by Utah Code 63H-5-101, et seq.. The authority is governed by a board, information can be found here:

https://boards.utah.gov/Board/Details/226

Part of me thinks the Boards and Commissions site is out of date, as most of the board's original commissions have expired. Or, the commisions have expired and nobody has done anything about it.

USRRM is empowered by the state to do various things:

Quote:
63H-5-106. Authority -- Powers.
(1) The authority shall:
(a) facilitate or operate and maintain a scenic and historic railroad in and around Weber and Box Elder Counties;
(b) facilitate or operate and maintain one or more railroad history museums in and around Weber and Box Elder Counties;
(c) facilitate the restoration, preservation, and public display of railroad artifacts and heritage in and around Weber and Box Elder Counties; and
(d) facilitate the restoration, preservation, and operation of historically significant railroad related properties in and around Weber and Box Elder Counties for public benefit.
(2) The authority has perpetual succession as a body politic and corporate and may:
(a) adopt, amend, and repeal policies and procedures for the regulation of its affairs and the conduct of its business;
(b) sue and be sued in its own name;
(c) maintain an office at a place it designates within the state;
(d) adopt, amend, and repeal bylaws and rules, consistent with this chapter, to carry into effect the powers and purposes of the authority and the conduct of its business;
(e) purchase, lease, sell, and otherwise dispose of property and rights-of-way;
(f) employ experts and other professionals it considers necessary;
(g) employ and retain independent legal counsel;
(h) make and execute contracts and all other instruments necessary or convenient for the performance of its duties under this chapter as described in Subsection (1);
(i) procure insurance for liability and against any loss in connection with its property and other assets in amounts and from insurers it considers desirable;
(j) receive appropriations from the Legislature and receive other public money and accept aid or contributions from any source of money, property, labor, or other things of value to be held, used, and applied to carry out the purposes of this chapter, subject to the conditions upon which the grants and contributions are made, including gifts or grants from a department, agency, or instrumentality of the United States or of this state for any purpose consistent with this chapter;
(k) enter into agreements with a department, agency, or instrumentality of the United States or this state for the purpose of providing for the operation and maintenance of a scenic railway in and around Weber and Box Elder Counties; and
(l) do any act necessary or convenient to the exercise of the powers granted to the authority by this chapter.
(3)
(a) All money received by the authority under Subsection (2)(j) and from any other source is for the exclusive use of the authority in the performance and exercise of its duties under this chapter as described in Subsection (1).
(b) Money received by the authority may not be used for any other purpose or by any other entity.


None of this says that USRRM has to be at Ogden Union Station. The museum just has to be in either Weber or Box Elder county. In other words, the Museum could move and still be "legal" within its authority.

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 Post subject: Re: Ogden RR Museum In Danger?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:02 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:07 pm
Posts: 136
Location: Utah
wilkinsd wrote:

At what cost? What if leaving the rail center as-is, including the interior museum space means that Union Station can't be financially viable, and thus less impetus to renegotiate a lease extension or purchase the property? Then what good is it?

How many visitors does USRM have annually?

Does USRM envision having to develop an alternate plan for relocation? If so, why hasn't USRM management been proactive in this field?


I don't think you understand what is going on. Ogden City's conceptual plans call for removing the rail center, which is the outdoor displays only, not the indoor displays, and replacing it with an ice rink. Will an outdoor ice rink make money? Very unlikely. In fact, the cost to maintain it will be more than what is being spent to maintain the railroad collections, which is zero. Neither Ogden City or the Union Station Foundation contribute any money at all to the upkeep of the collections. All restoration work and maintenance that has been accomplished, particularly on the 5371, has been done through grants from outside sources and labor provided by members of different preservation groups in the state. The only thing that the city/foundation spent money on was a fence, which was a huge fight to get after years of repeated and constant vandalism.

No, replacing the rail center with an outdoor ice rink will not keep the buildings afloat financially. Even less so if it is replaced with a brand new automobile museum as one plan outlines. And even if they do remodel the interior, which is fine because the interior museums are in need of a facelift anyway, they do not plan on eliminating those museums. What the Ogden City conceptual plans call for is the complete demolition of the outdoor pavilion, removal of all tracks, and display of only 12-14 pieces of equipment on the platform tracks, which is roughly only 20% of the total collection.

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Josh B.


Director, Golden Spike Chapter R&LHS
The official D&RGW 223 website


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 Post subject: Re: Ogden RR Museum In Danger?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:33 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2435
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Utah Josh wrote:
In fact, the cost to maintain it will be more than what is being spent to maintain the railroad collections, which is zero. .


Yes, I do understand what's going on. I've read the same articles you have. One of the concerns is the condition of the building, and trying to find people willing to invest in a property.

And if you've been to the rail collections recently, with the exception of the 5371 work, you will see that exactly $0.00 appears to have even been spent by USRRM on "maintaining" its equipment.

And once again, you fail to answer the question of what exactly is the "draw" in terms of paid visitors to the USRRM? If it was such an economic driver of downtown Ogden, I doubt it'd be in danger.

Bottom line, USRRM is a tenant in a structure owned by another. Owner no longer sees USRRM as beneficial and wants to try something to make it more attractive and profitable. I haven't seen any counter-plans from USRRM as to what it could do to better its visitorship and perhaps provide a better value if the rail center is allowed to stay.

Also, is USRRM a good steward of its equipment? Perhaps this should be viewed as an opportunity to pare down the collection to the 838, big diesels and GTEL, and a few pieces of rolling stock.

Frankly, I'd like to see what it costs to maintain an outdoor ice rink. There's one in Galvin Plaza near my office in Salt Lake City. In the summer, it's a paved open space. It really can't be that much to maintain, and would at least be a seasonal draw to OUS.

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 Post subject: Re: Ogden RR Museum In Danger?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:50 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5229
Location: southeastern USA
OK, why not have both? Space the rusty iron out and flood the areas around and between the rolling stock. Ogden then has the only railroad skating rink in the country, possibly the world.

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 Post subject: Re: Ogden RR Museum In Danger?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:49 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:07 pm
Posts: 136
Location: Utah
You still do not understand. The Utah State Railroad Museum has no property, no board, and no physical presence. It is a state-granted name to the collections that are owned by Ogden City and the Union Station Foundation (in no particular order, for many years donation records were kept loosely or not at all). Nearly all of the locomotives and cars are owned by Ogden City. Is the USRRM a bad tenant? No, because it's not a tenant. It's only a legislative code that allows Ogden to draw from state funds to preserve and interpret railroad history. All, and I repeat ALL, responsibility towards the rail collections falls squarely on Ogden City's shoulders, and Ogden City has done nothing to maintain them, and in fact has been completely negligent towards them.

However, the good news is that the original blog post has been updated with semi-good news. At least the foundation board is against Ogden City's proposals to remove the collections.

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Josh B.


Director, Golden Spike Chapter R&LHS
The official D&RGW 223 website


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 Post subject: Re: Ogden RR Museum In Danger?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:27 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:44 am
Posts: 625
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Point of clarification: the Union Pacific 4-8-4 on display at Ogden is FEF-2 #833.

#838 is at Cheyenne as a parts source for #844.

This is a sad turn of events for rail preservation in Utah. It seems like Ogden City "has it out" for the railroad collection- first evidenced by the "benign neglect" its received since the pavilion opened in 1989, to more recent moves which removed the security fencing around the equipment which left it vulnerable to vandals and transients. Perhaps if it ends up looking like just "so much junk", it will be easier to get rid of.

I was really excited when Chris Fussell and his Dynarail organization brought their SDP40F and F40PH to Ogden and began doing additional work to maintain the existing exhibits. I'll be sorry to see them go.

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 Post subject: Re: Ogden RR Museum In Danger?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:14 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 703
This is yet another wake-up call to those with museums or equipment sitting on
or operating on track and/or land that they do not own and control.

There seems to be an epidemic of this kind of thing recently.

One thing I read on another forum that was supposedly posted by one of the Ogden
people was that the 2 ex-Amtrak units that they most detest "...have nothing to do
with Ogden railroad history."

Guess he forgot when Amtrak served Ogden and those very engines went through there
many times.


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 Post subject: Re: Ogden RR Museum In Danger?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:49 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2435
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
All throughout this thread, Josh kept telling me that I "don't understand" what is going on. Seems like he and his merry band of bloggers are the ones who fail to understand.

Seems like this was all a bunch of hysteria generated by Josh and bloggers for no real reason. The Union Station Foundation has weighed in. My guess is that their little stunt has done incalculable damage to the relationships between the various parties working to preserve Ogden Union Station.

Quote:
"This is all news to me and I'm the secretary of the Union Station Foundation. Yes, the city is taking back management of the building. It's their building, their responsibility, the Foundation never had the funds to properly maintain it. The Foundation is currently considering its new role as things move forward, but preservation of the collections and development of programs is our goal.

As to the other stuff -- the city hired an architect two years ago -- or was it three? -- which came up with a lot of preliminary plans and ideas, including the idea of converting/creating a hotel, but those plans were never adopted or even taken past the preliminary stage.

At this point Ogden City is trying to buy the land under the station, yes, and there is discussion of finding developers to help with renovation/remodeling of the building, but I know of no plans to tear down the rail center, nor even any firm proposal to do so.

This talks about proposal by the director of the foundation to merge the collections -- that was one idea, and in my opinion a good one, and may still happen, but that director just left for a new job.

The rest of this post is based on old news by someone who obviously hasn't talked to anyone in the city or foundation recently.

Will the collections be changed in the future? Could be, nobody knows at this point. But nothing is as firm as this article makes it seem, at least from where I sit.

Charles Trentelman
Secretary
Union Station Foundation"

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