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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top owner trying to sell railroad in one piec
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:33 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:34 am
Posts: 421
Location: Port Jefferson, NY (LIRR MP 57.5)
For what it's worth, there is a McDonald's in Mt. Union now, right next to the EBT enginehouse in fact.

-Philip Marshall


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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top owner trying to sell railroad in one piec
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:26 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:07 pm
Posts: 454
Location: B'more Maryland
philip.marshall wrote:
For what it's worth, there is a McDonald's in Mt. Union now, right next to the EBT enginehouse in fact.

-Philip Marshall


And a Sheetz!

But neither of those are really big "vacation draws"...

And while there is plenty of lodging under an hour away, that doesn't really help vacation planners from a marketing perspective the way that something in the same town would.


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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top owner trying to sell railroad in one piec
PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:54 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:45 am
Posts: 311
Location: Alaska
Marketing couldn't be that hard. All you have to do is sell the "undiscovered" aspect and make sure the few B&B's and other places already there hold up their end. The kids in Brooklyn with gobs of money will flow in in no time. I would suggest even selling EBT flasks, since it's a dry county or something to that effect.

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John Hillier


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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top owner trying to sell railroad in one piec
PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:57 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8396
Location: Baltimore, MD
JohnHillier wrote:
I would suggest even selling EBT flasks, since it's a dry county or something to that effect.


Not a "dry" county--that's just the impression that the statewide Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board has upon visitors from other, more enlightened states, with its monopoly on wine and spirits sales only in state-run stores and horribly archaic laws that restrict retail beer sales to "distributors" who have to sell by the case, except for bars selling six-packs at inflated mark-ups. (This is slowly being circumvented by certain grocery retailers exploiting a loophole that just appeared, allowing them to set up a separate "store within a store" for beer sales.)

The other reality is that Orbisonia, Mt. Union, etc. are ridiculously remote, economically and culturally. One of the down sides to the "time capsule" character of the EBT and environs is that, in some ways you're still stepping back in time 50 or more years culturally as well in that area. Somehow I would not be surprised to find a black-and-white TV in a bar in that area. I'm perpetually amazed at the small town elsewhere in Pa. that have brewpubs--Altoona, Chambersburg, Carlisle, Williamsport, Selinsgrove, Mifflinburg, etc.--but Orbisonia is simply the center of a huge "black hole" of nothingness when it comes to any decent booze culture. Oh, there's now one tiny winery outlet in Huntingdon.........


Last edited by Alexander D. Mitchell IV on Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top owner trying to sell railroad in one piec
PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:25 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:33 pm
Posts: 6
The effort to save EBT stated well back in the 1970s with the EBT getting historic status in 1979. In the following decade, the Southwestern Pennsylvania Heritage Preservation Commission (SWPHPC) formed in 1987 tried to work with the NPS to save the EBT. This organization commissioned the 1991 NPS draft of preservation alternatives. (See this link.. http://www.spikesys.com/EBT/Studies/soa.html )
I have done bit of research into the SWPHPC and its demise in 2008. This appears to have cut off any federal leadership on preserving the EBT using the NPS framework after that period (the Alt 5 laid out in the NPS study).
See this article on the SWPHPC ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest ... Commission

Thanks for the Interest ...
Mike OConnor


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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top owner trying to sell railroad in one piec
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:10 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:20 pm
Posts: 455
Photo posted a few days ago of gas-electric M-1 and volunteers in 1986.

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/639882/


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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top owner trying to sell railroad in one piec
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:19 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 1753
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
JohnHillier wrote:
I would suggest even selling EBT flasks, since it's a dry county or something to that effect.


Not a "dry" county--that's just the impression that the statewide Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board has upon visitors from other, more enlightened states, with its monopoly on wine and spirits sales only in state-run stores and horribly archaic laws that restrict retail beer sales to "distributors" who have to sell by the case, except for bars selling six-packs at inflated mark-ups. (This is slowly being circumvented by certain grocery retailers exploiting a loophole that just appeared, allowing them to set up a separate "store within a store" for beer sales.)

The other reality is that Orbisonia, Mt. Union, etc. are ridiculously remote, economically and culturally. One of the down sides to the "time capsule" character of the EBT and environs is that, in some ways you're still stepping back in time 50 or more years culturally as well in that area. Somehow I would not be surprised to find a black-and-white TV in a bar in that area. I'm perpetually amazed at the small town elsewhere in Pa. that have brewpubs--Altoona, Chambersburg, Carlisle, Williamsport, Selinsgrove, Mifflinburg, etc.--but Orbisonia is simply the center of a huge "black hole" of nothingness when it comes to any decent booze culture. Oh, there's now one tiny winery outlet in Huntingdon.........


Actually, it's not a loophole: It was a specific act of the PA Legislature.

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/leg ... d=0&act=39

Interestingly, until the passage of Act 39, Pennsylvania was one of two states that had the highest level of control-the other being Utah (duh?). Pennsylvania's reasoning was far different, starting with the legend that the forester turned Governor at the time of the end of federal prohibition (Gifford Pinchot) had some sort of tea-totalling impulses as the result of youthful indiscretion and he wanted alcohol to be somewhat limited (of course the then booze-soaked railroad and mining cultures might have had something to do with it, but the Pinchot story is better); I am old enough to remember "counter stores" where you would tell the sales clerk what you wanted and he/she would go to the back to bring you your selection, with all the shame of being a teenager asking the pharmacist for those special latex products, before they were out in the open.


It's probably a first step to the system Virginia and many other states use-where the hard stuff is sold through "state stores", but wine in grocery stores.

Although for most of the state the LCB sets the rules, there are dry exceptions (although we lost a few this year)

http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/05/ca ... ville.html

I'm not sure if Juniata County? is dry, but I can check with some friends who work in the venerable old "Northwest Office Building"; a WPA project located on the former site of Fink's Brewery (a victim of prohibition) and next door to a Pub named "Sturges Speakeasy".

Only in PA can the alcohol regulator be next to "The Speakeasy".


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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top owner trying to sell railroad in one piec
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:12 pm 

Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:23 am
Posts: 134
Location: willow grove pa
The way to get a drink in central Pennsylvania is to go to the local VFW or American Legion. MT Union boasts one of each. No "taprooms" needed in small towns just look for a Frat organization. The Frats and Quakers help keep PA liquor laws in the stone age.
VFW serves hot dogs and two kinds of chips, not sure of the legion!


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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top owner trying to sell railroad in one piec
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:37 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8396
Location: Baltimore, MD
RDGRAILFAN wrote:
Actually, it's not a loophole: It was a specific act of the PA Legislature.
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/leg ... d=0&act=39

Actually, the passage of Act 39 was spurred in large part by certain store chains finding the earlier loophole--buying a deli take-out license, setting up a "deli" as a separate part of the store, and arranging for beer sales by the six-pack or bottle there--and shooting the equivalent of a missile through it. Weis Markets, originally based out of Sunbury, Pa., was the first chain to do this, with Giant following; expansion is spreading to other chains (grocery and convenience--Wawa, Sheetz, etc.) as fast as they can acquire the (hideously expensive by national standards) licenses at auction by the state.

Quote:
The Frats and Quakers help keep PA liquor laws in the stone age.

We are riding the Derailed Topic Train across multiple jurisdictions here, but......

As the son of a Quaker, I can tell you that even though the tenets of the Religious Society of Friends discourages (but does not specifically proscribe) the consumption of alcohol or other drugs, not only is that followed by whatever few Quakers are left in Pennsylvania (about 12,000, or about 0.1% of the population) about as closely as Catholics in the U.S. adhere to Catholic bans on such things as divorce, abortion, etc., but Quakers also tend--like the Amish--not to get involved in state regulation.

It's not fraternal lodges, volunteer fire companies (proof that I *do* know my native commonwealth!), or religious zealots that keep those laws archaic. It's the combined lobbying efforts (read: graft) of the paid lobbyists of beer "distributors" (where you had to buy beer by the case, until recently often in warehouse-like settings) and the United Food and Commercial Workers Local 1776, which represents Pa. state-run liquor store workers and constantly spits out bold-faced lies and scare tactics at legislators and the public in order to maintain what little support remains for a state-run commercial enterprise that reminds many of the stereotype of the MVA for customer service and efficiency.

The complexity of this issue rivals trying to explain FRA and AAR equipment standards (such as 1472-day boiler rules and 40-year truck inspections) to the general public, however, So I suggest we get back to discussing the EBT.

I must say that I don't ever recall hearing anyone ever complain about the dearth of quality booze around Chama, Alna, or Cass, however.......... though I still regret never getting Narrow Gauge Brewing beer to Alna myself......


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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top owner trying to sell railroad in one piec
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:48 am 

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:49 am
Posts: 233
Location: Cambridgeshire UK
Hi Guys, Getting a bit back on topic, is there a current roster of what is left on the EBT, including freight and passenger cars? Also, what is the current condition of the right of way?Thanks, David Notarius, freezing in England


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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top owner trying to sell railroad in one piec
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:22 am 

Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:21 pm
Posts: 390
Location: Columbus, OH
David Notarius wrote:
Hi Guys, Getting a bit back on topic, is there a current roster of what is left on the EBT, including freight and passenger cars? Also, what is the current condition of the right of way?Thanks, David Notarius, freezing in England


I could go on ad nauseam on this subject, but I will try to be brief. The physical roster at the page below was last updated in 2005 but is still pretty accurate. Since then two boxcars, a flatcar and a hopper were pulled from the Rockhill dead line for reuse, Combine 18 and baggage 29 were repatriated from Colorado to Rockhill, and the non-EBT USATC boxcars in Mount Union have been scrapped. Beyond that, both Pine Creek and WW&F have removed parts of hoppers in Mount Union but no other equipment has left.

http://www.spikesys.com/EBT/proster.html

This page details the stats and distribution of existing rolling stock as of the same date as the roster above:

http://www.spikesys.com/EBT/stats.html

The tourist portion from Rockhill to Colgate Grove is being kept clear and serviceable for speeders and larger equipment has been run as far as McMullens Summit. The weeds are encroaching but are being sprayed periodically. The cuts and fills are suffering from some erosion. Outside of that area the line is much as it has been with trees growing between the rails, large ones in some cases. A section of rail was stolen south of Coles as part of a scam that has been fairly well covered. Other than that and a couple short sections where the rail has been moved to permit equipment access, the rail remains intact from Mount Union to just short of old Alvan. The Robertsdale yard which was cleared while under lease by the EBTPA to the Broad Top Coal Miners Association between 2009 and 2011 has since been going back to nature.

FEBT Restoration at Rockhill Furnace continues on with work progressing on the Locomotive Shop, Lumber Shed, Blacksmith Shop and Foundry, was well as Combine 14. FEBT's restoration of the RI&C Company Post Office in Robertsdale is nearly completed and all new exhibits are in the process of being constructed for the new museum in that building.

_________________
Christopher D. Coleman

http://www.spikesys.com/EBT East Broad Top Homepage
http://www.febt.org Friends of the East Broad Top
http://www.ebtrr.com East Broad Top Railroad


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 Post subject: Re: East Broad Top owner trying to sell railroad in one piec
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:36 am 

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:33 pm
Posts: 6
David Notarius wrote:
Hi Guys, Getting a bit back on topic, ....what is the current condition of the right of way?Thanks, David Notarius, freezing in England


Hi David ...Thanks for the query ... the condition of the ROW is an interesting question... The other post went into a detailed discussion of what FEBT is doing... this covers the other areas...

At the time that Kovalchick bought the property in the 1950s, the acreage was something in the 60,000 range. Unlike other RRs, the right of way did not have a separate property description, even though there are valuation maps with an assumed ROW width of 60 feet. There was no property transfer in the form of a recorded deed to Kovalchick. The company purchased 100 percent of the EBT stock from Rockhill Furnace. Later Kovalchick purchased the RFI itself and then "sold" RFI to EBT in a recorded deed a few years later.

Over the years, parcels of land have been sold off to pay the bills, assessed taxes, etc. The yard areas in Orbisonia were reduced by land sales to developers, American Legion, schools, FEBT, etc. Then take away the land leased to the trolley museum. The Mt Union yards down to MP4 were sold but amazingly enough, EBT retains operating rights into MT. Union. Parts of the ROW south of Rockhill furnace have been compromised with track removal. Even one of the tunnels has been sold off with the railroad retaining only an easement through the property.

As noted in the 1990s National Parks study, there will be a number of challenges in putting together a single deed document to sell the property ...

Best of the holidays to you ... stay warm ...

Michael O’Connor, PE
Frederick and Pennsylvania Line
Railroad Museum
Walkersville, Maryland


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