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Unknown Ontario Train
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Author:  Old Smokey [ Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Unknown Ontario Train

Forum members...need a bit of help.

A number of years ago I acquired some original negatives dating from the early 1900's.

They were taken by a Sgt. Johnson of Toronto's, Queen's Own Rifles.
A well respected Canadian Militia Unit.

(Territorials to you British types....and similar to the U.S. National Guard )

He'd be part of Sir Henry Pellet's mob...the guy who built the famous Casa Loma.

Seems the Sgt. liked photographing ships and appears to be a very early railfan.

Looking at his work all these years later...he was a good photographer.

A knowledgable friend has helped me with the walking-beam steamer " Chippewa" and other ships than ran on Lake Ontario..

.......but the train has proved elusive.

I'm doing some research on him and was wondering if anyone could help identify the location of this bridge ....( it seems a bit unique)

.... and what railroad it might be..?

I made this print off the neg. but there was no information at all.

Best I can do is Southern Ontario...perhaps as late as 1920...possibly early 1900's.
Not much to go on I know.

Thanks,

O.S.

Attachments:
Scan 15.jpg
Scan 15.jpg [ 182.28 KiB | Viewed 1871 times ]
Chippewa (1).jpg
Chippewa (1).jpg [ 216.52 KiB | Viewed 1871 times ]
Unknown Ont. train early 1900's.jpg
Unknown Ont. train early 1900's.jpg [ 148.95 KiB | Viewed 1871 times ]

Author:  Gord M [ Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown Ontario Train

Sure likes like the bridge over the Credit River, Port Credit, Ontario. The loco is Grand Trunk. This is now the GO Transit (formerly CN) Oakville Subdivision about 16 miles west of Toronto. The bridge is still in heavy use and the line is soo busy they built a new bridge on the north side and triple-tracked this area a few years ago.

Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown Ontario Train

Gord M wrote:
Sure likes like the bridge over the Credit River, Port Credit, Ontario. The loco is Grand Trunk. This is now the GO Transit (formerly CN) Oakville Subdivision about 16 miles west of Toronto. The bridge is still in heavy use and the line is soo busy they built a new bridge on the north side and triple-tracked this area a few years ago.

Compare and contrast:

http://historicbridges.org/bridges/brow ... ortcredit/

I say "Nope, try again."

Author:  Gord M [ Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown Ontario Train

I still think it may be the same location with an upgraded bridge that would have been required after CN took over around 1921 as they introduced heavier power. Grand Trunk used 4-4-0's very late in the game. It's unfortunate the angles aren't quite the same in the pics. The stone abutments look right; we used to play around these as kids.

Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown Ontario Train

There's a bigger gallery of full-resolution photos of the present bridge at:

http://historicbridges.org/bridges/brow ... lerysize=1

The bridge expert in me says that claiming this is the same bridge/location is like saying a SR Ps-4 or Southern Pacific 4-6-2 is a PRR K4s because they have the same wheel arrangement.

Note that the vintage picture you linked shows remnants of a pier and abutments of a previous bridge. Also, that bridge is of substantially greater construction than even the modern Port Credit vintage span--seemingly built with doubleheaded 4-8-4s in mind instead of a lowly 4-4-0. Bridges were being upgraded like this in the 1890-1920 time era, so the implausible pairing of little 4-4-0 on a massive bridge is not that jarring for the time period.

The biggest problem I have is the apparent height of the bridge deck above the water. Has the river been dammed in recent years to raise the water level?

Author:  Overmod [ Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown Ontario Train

Why did the bridge expert not lead by noting that the truss construction and the end support is utterly different between the bridges? This is not mistaking a Ps-4 for a K4s, it's mistaking a Niagara for a Y6b because they're both locomotives and sort of the same color.

The Port Credit bridge in fact is notable for using pinned eyebars for the bottom chord, which in fact are carried up the 'bowstring' almost all the way to track level, with what appears to be a horizontal cylindrical bearing providing the expansion hinge at the support points.

The mystery bridge, by contrast, has what I consider an unusual truss construction, with no 'last panel' providing deck support vertically from the springing points of the bowstring -- that alone ought to make it fairly recognizable to you bridge nerds out there.

Author:  Heavenrich [ Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown Ontario Train

Thanks for posting this -- more info on the Chippewa is available at

http://niagarahistory.org/niagara-steamships-2/

Bob H

Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown Ontario Train

Overmod wrote:
Why did the bridge expert not lead by noting that the truss construction and the end support is utterly different between the bridges? This is not mistaking a Ps-4 for a K4s, it's mistaking a Niagara for a Y6b because they're both locomotives and sort of the same color.


Because the inquisitor had already speculated:

Quote:
I still think it may be the same location with an upgraded bridge.


One needed to explain that, if any bridge is the "upgrade," it's the one with the 4-4-0 on it, not the somewhat lighter truss shown for the HistoricBridges.org webpage for the Port Credit bridge.

My copy of Lines of Country hasn't been a help so far, but I've been busy as beavers on ice with blowtorches......

Author:  Gord M [ Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown Ontario Train

Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
There's a bigger gallery of full-resolution photos of the present bridge at:

http://historicbridges.org/bridges/brow ... lerysize=1

The bridge expert in me says that claiming this is the same bridge/location is like saying a SR Ps-4 or Southern Pacific 4-6-2 is a PRR K4s because they have the same wheel arrangement.

Note that the vintage picture you linked shows remnants of a pier and abutments of a previous bridge. Also, that bridge is of substantially greater construction than even the modern Port Credit vintage span--seemingly built with doubleheaded 4-8-4s in mind instead of a lowly 4-4-0. Bridges were being upgraded like this in the 1890-1920 time era, so the implausible pairing of little 4-4-0 on a massive bridge is not that jarring for the time period.

The biggest problem I have is the apparent height of the bridge deck above the water. Has the river been dammed in recent years to raise the water level?


No, but there was a dam a few miles north (upstream) at Erindale that would explain the lower water level in the 4-4-0 pic. Upstream would be the far side of the train. I vaguely recall that the dam was largely removed in the late 50's, early 60's. Again, speculating, I wonder if it's possible that CN replaced "4-4-0" bridge at some point which could then be the current bridge. If this isn't the PC bridge, it's heavy enough that would likely be somewhere on the GT/CN Montreal to Windsor main, but where? The embankments and stone abutments look right to me for the PC bridge. I am well aware of the construction differences. It's such a well-known and photographed line, I'm sure someone on here will have the answer.

Additional Info. A 1907 GTR survey identifies the following details on the Port Credit Bridge; single span, built 1901, 213' 3" long, 46' water level to rail head, pin-connected truss for two tracks. Given that embankment looks new with no vegetation the 4-4-0 pic, could this pic have been taken when the bridge was new? The dimensions and time seem to fit.

Author:  Overmod [ Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown Ontario Train

Quote:
"Given that embankment looks new with no vegetation the 4-4-0 pic, could this pic have been taken when the bridge was new?"

Yes, I think it's highly likely from the erosion marks in the approach fills that this is a picture taken recently after the bridge completion. But this is not the Port Credit bridge. Please acknowledge that you comprehend that.

Unless I'm sadly mistaken, a pin-jointed bowstring would be considerably older than the design of truss I see in the 'mystery picture' -- and I see no possibility that it would be constructed as a 'replacement' for the type of truss we see under any sane circumstances. I would also mention that the stonework and the components resting on it at the abutments are different in detail.

Thing is, the truss in the mystery picture has a construction feature I don't remember seeing before. The bowstring chord terminates before the logical springing point (compare the end bars on the Port Credit bridge, or the trusses on the approach spans to the Hell Gate Bridge, or just about any other inverted bowstring you'll see) with the abutments supporting the chord as if it were the bottom of a conventional deck truss; you then have only the compression member angled toward the 'inside' of the span on each side with no struts or panels up toward the deck. This HAS to be a kind of construction notorious to a particular builder or railroad, doesn't it?

Author:  Old Smokey [ Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown Ontario Train

First of all, I appreciate the input from all of you, and should mention it has stumped others.

I too thought the approaches fill looked new....seems to be double-tracked... certainly overkill for a lowly 4-4-0.

Grand Trunk ....Montreal/Windsor corridor.... That makes a lot of sense...as it was definitely an expensive bit of bridge building.

That excellent comment about it's unique design.... may help solve the mystery.


I did a high-res scan of the engine.
If it was GTR....any idea of class and possible number..?

O.S.

Attachments:
GTR 4-4-0.jpg
GTR 4-4-0.jpg [ 168.45 KiB | Viewed 1259 times ]

Author:  Old Smokey [ Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown Ontario Train

Overmod,
Here's a high-res scan of where the steel bridge truss rests on stone piers.

Your technical comments about the uniqueness of the bridge are appreciated... but a bit beyond my technical level....and I'd like to learn more.

Are you referring to how this simple beam transfers the track load from the roadbed onto the bridge ..?

Attachments:
GTR 4-4-0 2.jpg
GTR 4-4-0 2.jpg [ 78.63 KiB | Viewed 1238 times ]

Author:  M Secco [ Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown Ontario Train

Bridge under the 4-4-0 is shorter than the one with the commuter train on it . The 4-4-0 ones lower part of the truss is designed for both tension and compression . The latter one's bottom is tension only and in my humble opinion an earlier design .

Retired.
C&NW/UP Bridge & Building Dept.

Author:  Frank Hicks [ Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown Ontario Train

How about the Rouge River in Toronto?

http://www.virtualreferencelibrary.ca/detail.jsp?Entt=RDMDC-TSPA_0001095F&R=DC-TSPA_0001095F

http://tinyurl.com/y9cndso2

Author:  Atkinson_Railroad [ Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown Ontario Train

Very impressive "FIND" Mr. Hicks.

You would get this weeks Research Detective prize for sure!

John

Attachments:
BRIDGE.JPG
BRIDGE.JPG [ 107.39 KiB | Viewed 1097 times ]

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