It is currently Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:25 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: DLW 746 Boiler Damage: EL Mail List Pic from 1919
PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:12 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 1735
DLW 746 was an 2-8-0 maybe among the last engines completed at Dickson in Scranton:

2-8-0 740-779 40 Schenectady,Dickson 1901-1902

What are we seeing here? The ICC Accident reports online do not seem to include any DLW accidents related to a boiler explosion.

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto. ... /B2745.jpg

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto. ... /B2746.jpg


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DLW 746 Boiler Damage: EL Mail List Pic from 1919
PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:19 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1240
Location: Strasburg, PA
The second photo is the better of the two. On the left side, you can see that the boiler is laying on its left side in the shop. The backhead and fire door to the left. On the lower right, you can see that the button head crown bolts and crown sheet are completely intact.

The mud ring at the backhead is badly caved in, I suppose due to the boiler landing on its left rear corner after its flight.

Thanks for posting these.

_________________
"It was not easy to convince Allnutt. All his shop training had given him a profound prejudice against inexact work, experimental work, hit-or-miss work."
C. S. Forester

Strasburg Rail Road Mechanical Department


Last edited by Kelly Anderson on Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DLW 746 Boiler Damage: EL Mail List Pic from 1919
PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:07 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2080
If you punch it, thats going to change the metal surrounding the punch perhaps leaving micro cracks and the metal strength is compromised. Fine for standard construction but not pressurized containers like a boiler. All of those staybolts are ripped thru. When one went its a domino ripping the rest. save the image and enlarge it look at the staybolt hole, do you see a knurled in bump ring? I don't see any welded covers either, they should have stuck on the part on the right. Perhaps they were hammered spread out.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DLW 746 Boiler Damage: EL Mail List Pic from 1919
PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:12 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 1735
"Thanks for posting these."

No problem, glad to have the explanatory commentary from an informed person.


I was supposed to be on a train in the Poconos; a case of bronchitis that kept me up long past the time that would be safe for an 8 AM call changed my plans, so I was getting my fix from under the covers.

For those that haven't seen those pictures; there's thousands of them taken by a DL&W company or commissioned photographer, from the early 1900's to the 1920's. Several years ago Steamtown accepted them when deaccessioned from Syracuse University's holdings.


They cover a variety of random subjects-the raillroad, its properties and property near the railroad; employees, passengers and ordinary people nearby-with some locations identified or identifiable; some not. All a fascinating look at life a century or so ago.

Search EL Mail list. The list will mail you the the new pics which are posted daily by Steamtown's historian.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DLW 746 Boiler Damage: EL Mail List Pic from 1919
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:46 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:56 am
Posts: 10
What's a "bump" ring? Is that boiler jargon for a sleeve? Couldn't find an answer at Google Books ...


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DLW 746 Boiler Damage: EL Mail List Pic from 1919
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:59 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 330
What would be the effect of this sort of failure? I am guessing not survivable if the cab was occupied.

My great-grandfather was a fireman for the DL&W in the 20s and 30s, but unfortunately died before I was born and so I can't ask if he recalls (and anyway I would need to ask him in Ukrainian).


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DLW 746 Boiler Damage: EL Mail List Pic from 1919
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:03 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:06 am
Posts: 145
Kelly,
What do you think of the difference in color of the section of crownsheet that is folded "down"? By counting rows of stays the color change is about where the crown should have turned down toward the water leg. It also seems to me that the intact portion of the flat section of the crown has a change in color or at least contrast. Could that change have been made by a low water event that allowed that portion of the steel to overheat?

I ask that question because a Great Northern accident report I've read refers to the color of the crownsheet and upper portions of the sidesheets in their determination of water level at the time of failure. I look forward to your thoughts.

As a side note I find it interesting that a portion of the failed crown has been torched out. I'm guessing either for analysis or evidence....mld


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DLW 746 Boiler Damage: EL Mail List Pic from 1919
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:07 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1240
Location: Strasburg, PA
mldeets wrote:
Kelly,
What do you think of the difference in color of the section of crownsheet that is folded "down"? By counting rows of stays the color change is about where the crown should have turned down toward the water leg. It also seems to me that the intact portion of the flat section of the crown has a change in color or at least contrast. Could that change have been made by a low water event that allowed that portion of the steel to overheat?

I ask that question because a Great Northern accident report I've read refers to the color of the crownsheet and upper portions of the sidesheets in their determination of water level at the time of failure. I look forward to your thoughts.

Excellent point. I completely missed noticing a color difference, now quite obvious to me on the fire side of the sheet. That does point to a low water event.

In that case, perhaps the failure started where there are the two broken staybolts, with two intact staybolts between them. The bolts around the broken ones (esp. the two in between) would have been overloaded, and more prone to pulling out of the sheet when overheated than any of the others. Also, they are in the epicenter of the overall breach.

_________________
"It was not easy to convince Allnutt. All his shop training had given him a profound prejudice against inexact work, experimental work, hit-or-miss work."
C. S. Forester

Strasburg Rail Road Mechanical Department


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DLW 746 Boiler Damage: EL Mail List Pic from 1919
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:18 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2094
Location: Northern Illinois
PMC wrote:
What would be the effect of this sort of failure? I am guessing not survivable if the cab was occupied.


The effect is the entire contents of the boiler flashes to steam which is vented downward through the grates, typically tearing the boiler off the frame and flipping it over ahead of the engine.

No, it's not survivable by anyone in the cab.

_________________
Dennis Storzek


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DLW 746 Boiler Damage: EL Mail List Pic from 1919
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:28 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:05 pm
Posts: 67
Another point beyond the discoloration - we don't have the whole picture as there's a section missing. Torch cut, about 2.5 x 7 stay rows in size at the front of the folded down crown section. Front edge of missing section is a torn stay row. Wonder what we're missing there? POF reference or maybe just a metallurgy test?

Also, longitudinal tear of folded sections appears to be at a weld between crown and side sheet, the mirror of which is visible on left side of firebox. Was DLW welding fireboxes as early as 1919? I also note the very curious scalloped edge of the weld/tear.

_________________
G.
______________________________________
Radio crackles - "What the #^(& did we just hit, over?"


Last edited by TrainDetainer on Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DLW 746 Boiler Damage: EL Mail List Pic from 1919
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:38 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 895
Quote:
"What's a "bump" ring? Is that boiler jargon for a sleeve?"


I get the impression it's the pressure-vessel equivalent of a Keensert; in the days before quality autogenous welding, a bushing inserted into a hogged-out and, as noted, keyed or knurled staybolt hole, then deformed to snug fit suitable for subsequent drilling/reaming/retapping of its ID. No idea how many of these might have been 'allowable' in a given sheet or area before it would be replaced. No idea what the thermal characteristics or stress profile of these would be in service, either.

_________________
R.M.Ellsworth


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DLW 746 Boiler Damage: EL Mail List Pic from 1919
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:41 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:06 am
Posts: 145
TrainDetainer wrote:
...Also, longitudinal tear of folded sections appears to be at a weld between crown and side sheet, the mirror of which is visible on left side of firebox. Was DLW welding fireboxes as early as 1919?

Very interesting point! When I first looked over the photos I thought the scalloping was failure along a row (column?) of stays but closer examination makes me agree with you. It certainly does look like the crown was welded to the side sheets....mld


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DLW 746 Boiler Damage: EL Mail List Pic from 1919
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:48 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 238
Hey Supe - great post. Hope your bronchitis is better. Some very interesting technical observations. Had some notes of my own but have been without a computer for almost three weeks. Would have been quicker and cheaper to fix it myself.

Anyway, according to F. Stewart Graham's definitive work, "The Locomotives of the Delaware, Lackawanna, and Western Railroad", RLHS Bulletin No. 72 (July 1948), 746 was not built in Dickson. 740 to 759, 2-8-0, were built in Schenectady in 1901 b/n 5977 to 5996. Of all the 17B class 2-8-0 built, 724 - 799, 746 was the first to be scrapped in 1920. This is not unusual given the condition of the boiler in the photos.

As for looking for information in ICC accident reports, accounts of boiler explosions I have read from that period indicate that the investigational jurisdiction for locomotive boiler-explosion-related accidents was with the county coroner and not with any federal agency. Joining in the investigations are the local police, sometimes the FBI (if requested by local law enforcement), the railroad, and, if one existed, the state boiler regulating agency.

So your best bet is an old newspaper. From the Elmira Telegram March 23, 1919:

Attachment:
Lackawanna Boiler Explosion.jpg
Lackawanna Boiler Explosion.jpg [ 185.66 KiB | Viewed 540 times ]


Scranton Yard ... "making a run st[sic] the title of most irrelevant keyboard warrior on RYPN" - RobertJohnDavis


Last edited by Scranton Yard on Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DLW 746 Boiler Damage: EL Mail List Pic from 1919
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 1735
Thanks.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DLW 746 Boiler Damage: EL Mail List Pic from 1919
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:04 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:25 pm
Posts: 247
I have seen ICC reports on boiler explosions. There was a big modern articulated on a long D&RGW freight (trying to remember the railroad) that passed a tower at track speed with the low water alarm sounding (heard in the tower) and then shortly afterwards.... BLAMO. Boiler landed 1/4 mile away, crew RIP. WWII era if I remember correctly. Reported cause; crew failure, possibly overcome by fumes, or over worked and fell asleep. Was a three man crew IIRC, engineer, fireman, head brakie.

Possibly the report for this DLW accident is just missing from the database ? It was 1919. The modern database is just computer scans of old paper reports. Maybe a filing cabinet got lost over the years.

My understanding is that any "train" accident on a common carrier that resulted in fatalities required an ICC investigation.

Maybe the rules regarding ICC investigations of railroad boiler explosions changed between 1920 and 1940 ?

Also the "scalloping" along the exposed edge of the turned down crownsheet (middle of the photo) sure looks like a line of rivets to me. Smaller holes spaced closer together. Possibly the crown sheet was riveted to side sheet of the inner firebox wall ? But the crown sheet seems to be a solid piece (no rivets, just stays) where it joins the other (left, or bottom in this picture) wall of the inner firebox sheets ? Very curious ?

Cheers, Kevin


Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


 Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], CTA4453, Google [Bot], JayZee and 17 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: