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 Post subject: Re: Little mystery in Maumee, Ohio
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:59 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2314
Location: Northern Illinois
J3a-614 wrote:
Your last mission, should you choose to accept it, will be to determine the car series that was the origin of these rebuilds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0tNw4jNp28


So THAT'S why the tape player smoked when I went to play it... here I thought is was just typical chicom junk.

I think Dave Vago has as good a proposal as any; the C&NW "Fowler" boxcars have straight center sills and would not be a supply of pressed roof or end panels, forcing a non-railroad shop to get creative in fabricating those items. I do note with interest, however, that in the Frank Hicks photo of the brake rigging diagram plate, the plate appears to be bolted to a CASTING... the thickened edge surrounding the hole is a dead giveaway. Castings are pretty rare in freightcar underframes, other than cast body bolsters. Maybe Frank can tell us what frame member the plate was riveted to? That might be the clue that someone with a set of C&NW equipment diagrams (I don't have any) could use to pin down which cars were the donors of the underframes.

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 Post subject: Re: Little mystery in Maumee, Ohio
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:19 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:34 pm
Posts: 658
Location: Union, IL
Dennis Storzek wrote:
I do note with interest, however, that in the Frank Hicks photo of the brake rigging diagram plate, the plate appears to be bolted to a CASTING... the thickened edge surrounding the hole is a dead giveaway. Castings are pretty rare in freightcar underframes, other than cast body bolsters. Maybe Frank can tell us what frame member the plate was riveted to? That might be the clue that someone with a set of C&NW equipment diagrams (I don't have any) could use to pin down which cars were the donors of the underframes.

Unfortunately I didn't get any wider shots of the underframe (oops) but I did get a couple of close-ups. The casting to which the diagram plate was attached was one of the cross-bearers (terminology?). I've included a photo of that cast cross bearer - note the wheel and journal box in the background - and also a close-up of where it bolts to the center sill, which caught my eye because of the Illinois Steel mark.


Attachments:
Boxcar2.jpg
Boxcar2.jpg [ 219.17 KiB | Viewed 913 times ]
Boxcar1.jpg
Boxcar1.jpg [ 181.49 KiB | Viewed 913 times ]

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Frank Hicks
Preserved North American Electric Railway Equipment News
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 Post subject: Re: Little mystery in Maumee, Ohio
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:05 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5320
Frank -

Thanks for the additional photos. Didn't take a close up of the reporting marks on that car at OERM by any chance, or the "herald" up on the right side of the car?

BTW, Illinois Steel had five plants, most of them in Illinois (North Chicago, Joliet, etc.), eventually acquired Carnegie Steel and finally ended up as an integral part of U.S. Steel when it was formed.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Little mystery in Maumee, Ohio
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:51 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:41 am
Posts: 26
Location: NW Ohio
Les Beckman wrote:
Gents -

The DROX reporting marks that were reported by BnOTolSub as being on the underframe, I believe was on the car at Maumee, Ohio and not on the two cars at OERM that were once at Dresser Tire. The reason I think that the DROX marks are on the Maumee car is that BnOTolSub is reported as being from "NW Ohio". Les


I live about 6 miles from that car in Maumee. Once the ground conditions get a little better over there, I will try to do a little more "exploring" around the car.


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 Post subject: Re: Little mystery in Maumee, Ohio
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:53 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2314
Location: Northern Illinois
Les Beckman wrote:
BTW, Illinois Steel had five plants, most of them in Illinois (North Chicago, Joliet, etc.), eventually acquired Carnegie Steel and finally ended up as an integral part of U.S. Steel when it was formed.


The original underframes may be older than we were thinking. Illinois Steel Co. merged itself out of existence in 1901. Now I would suppose that the rolling mill rolls remained in use until they wore out, and I'm sure I've seen the ILLINOIS mill mark in interurban car underframes built in the 1906-1908 time frame, but those dates fit solidly into the era of freightcars with wooden body frames.

I also did some searching in the older issues of Car Builder's Dictionary scanned and available on the web. As I said earlier, cast steel components were rare in steel framed cars. They were rather common, however, as components for wood framed cars; first as cast body bolsters for use with wood sills, then as both bolsters and crossbearers with structural steel center sills intended to strengthen wood underframe cars. Both the 1906 and 1909 Car Builder's Dictionary show photos of the Ralston Patent Steel Underframe for Freight Cars, which has cast crossbearers, although not the exact same pattern. I'm sure there were competing products offered by others. These typically did not have side sills; the cars still had wood side sills.

Which would mean that NONE of the body above the frame is original. If someone is out taking pix of the cars either in Maumee of Perris, it would be useful to see the crossbearer/side sill connection, and the underside of the side sill.

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 Post subject: Re: Little mystery in Maumee, Ohio
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:55 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5320
Was checking on an old RyPN thread on short flats (or gun flats) and happened to find this photo in that thread taken by Marty Bernard at Orange Empire;

http://railfan44.rrpicturearchives.net/ ... id=2904540

And HEY!; there's one of the "mystery" box cars in the background! I can't quite read the OERM number that was put on the car and perhaps it's that 25828 number mentioned in the photo that Frank Hicks submitted. Or it could be the OTHER car. Anyway, the Desser Tire & Rubber lettering is very visible in Marty's photo.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Little mystery in Maumee, Ohio
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:14 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2226
I rambled in my LHS and by gums Accurail has a fowler wood boxcar, I peeked at it and it had the wood end framing. There was no road name just data on it, almost bought it, maybe next time.

perhaps a question to accurail is in order.


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 Post subject: Re: Little mystery in Maumee, Ohio
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:50 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2226
https://cprailmmsub.blogspot.com/2016/0 ... d-out.html

this will explain the end supports which eliminated the outer end wall.

I think we have a good near design match, it almost looks like the end verticle supports are reused in the rebuild.
From the first page photos it looks like you can't get to the roof from from that side end but other grabs around the car you can wobble around to get to the roof.


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