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 Post subject: Carnival Cruises buys White Pass & Yukon
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:05 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:25 pm
Posts: 1881
From Railway Age via CruiseCritic.com

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/news/n-america/single-view/view/cruise-company-buys-white-pass-yukon-railway.html

Wesley


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 Post subject: Re: Carnival Cruises buys White Pass & Yukon
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:56 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 123
Interesting! well... that railway won't run out of money, or passengers, anytime soon. That's for sure.

Maybe... just maybe someone at Carnival likes steam, or at least see's the value in it.
(I can hope!).


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 Post subject: Re: Carnival Cruises buys White Pass & Yukon
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:04 pm 

Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:05 pm
Posts: 116
From golf clubs to cruise ships. At least it's entertainment. Call me old fashioned, but somehow "914 mm gauge" just doesn't do it for me like '3-foot' or 'narrow gauge'.

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 Post subject: Re: Carnival Cruises buys White Pass & Yukon
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:37 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3341
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Crescent-Zephyr wrote:
Interesting! well... that railway won't run out of money, or passengers, anytime soon. That's for sure.

Maybe... just maybe someone at Carnival likes steam, or at least see's the value in it.
(I can hope!).


I hope you're right as well. . .let us recall that, from our point of view, the experience with Xanterra and the Grand Canyon Scenic wasn't quite what we wanted to see.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanterra_ ... nd_Resorts


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 Post subject: Re: Carnival Cruises buys White Pass & Yukon
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:56 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8817
Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
As opposed to being owned by "Canadian golf club company TWC Enterprises Ltd"??

So some of us may not like the Grand Canyon running less steam, but in all seriousness, who else is going to take on such a massive asset? Would you rather have waited until some equity firm picked it up at an estate sale?

WP&Y, like the D&S, GCRY, etc. long ago ceased to be a railfan labor of love or a time capsule. Given the choice between continued operation under some corporation and, well, the situation we see with the EBT, I know what I'd want to see.


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 Post subject: Re: Carnival Cruises buys White Pass & Yukon
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:31 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm
Posts: 123
Well.. the EBT is being offered for sale at an unrealistic asking price. If the same were true for the Grand Canyon operation no one would have bought it. I personally believe that a historically accurate steam train to the Canyon would sell for a premium that would cover the extra costs for the steam engine, especially in the busy summer months, if marketed correctly, but that's a train in another state.

My response was a positive one, cruise ships aren't going to stop going to Alaska, and cruise lines make alot of money by selling shore excursions like this. I see this a very good sign for the continuing operation of the White Pass. It should also be noted that Carnival owns Princess Cruises and Holland America Lines. The customers on lines like that are going to be the exact type of market that would pay a premium for steam. So my optimism isn't blind. Of course, Carnival could also paint the train bright red and re-letter it "the carnival party train." Only time will tell.


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 Post subject: Re: Carnival Cruises buys White Pass & Yukon
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:49 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:07 am
Posts: 691
Location: Philadelphia Pa
Crescent-Zephyr wrote:
Well.. the EBT is being offered for sale at an unrealistic asking price. If the same were true for the Grand Canyon operation no one would have bought it. I personally believe that a historically accurate steam train to the Canyon would sell for a premium that would cover the extra costs for the steam engine, especially in the busy summer months, if marketed correctly, but that's a train in another state.

My response was a positive one, cruise ships aren't going to stop going to Alaska, and cruise lines make alot of money by selling shore excursions like this. I see this a very good sign for the continuing operation of the White Pass. It should also be noted that Carnival owns Princess Cruises and Holland America Lines. The customers on lines like that are going to be the exact type of market that would pay a premium for steam. So my optimism isn't blind. Of course, Carnival could also paint the train bright red and re-letter it "the carnival party train." Only time will tell.


Honestly, riding in climate controlled cars, you don't really care what's up front. When they used only opened window coaches, it was a draw...but having ridden the GCR, I wouldn't pay a premium just to say a steam engine pulled the train ....if I can't see it or hear it, diesel will do just fine. Most John Q.Public would agree.

Here's good luck to the WP&Y and their staff. At least for now, they have secure jobs.


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 Post subject: Re: Carnival Cruises buys White Pass & Yukon
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:22 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:37 pm
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It will be interesting to see what changes are made. For instance, new diesel locos? I have read the rebuilt units were not that great and further re-engined units did not result. Could there be more coaches built assuming the demand might be there? If so, who might build them? Will steam remain as is or be changed/expanded? Should they desire another steam engine(s) what might be available?


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 Post subject: Re: Carnival Cruises buys White Pass & Yukon
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:25 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:28 pm
Posts: 69
Location: Florida
I was on a Disney cruise up there two weeks ago and rode the train to Fraser as part of a shore excursion. They are in fact building new coaches, you can see all the new truck frames piled high outside of their shops. The car I rode in was obviously one of the newer ones and until I learned it was a new car I was amazed nothing seemed "original." For those that haven't been there recently, they have 3 tracks that go right up to the ports along side where they dock the ships, one for each cruise ship. You can literally step right off the ship and right onto a rail car. When I was there 3 ships were in port and in the morning each one had a train parked next to the ship. Each train boarded and left in the morning and this repeated two more times that I saw in the day.

They already seemed to be hauling way more people than I've ever seen on any excursion line, as you went up the pass you could look down and see two more trains following us up the mountain.


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 Post subject: Re: Carnival Cruises buys White Pass & Yukon
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:52 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:37 pm
Posts: 219
Another little known fact is that the WP&Y is the only fully unionized tourist line in the country.


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 Post subject: Re: Carnival Cruises buys White Pass & Yukon
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:44 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3341
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
R.L.Kennedy wrote:
It will be interesting to see what changes are made. For instance, new diesel locos? I have read the rebuilt units were not that great and further re-engined units did not result. Could there be more coaches built assuming the demand might be there? If so, who might build them? Will steam remain as is or be changed/expanded? Should they desire another steam engine(s) what might be available?


A couple of changes that might be positive, and might be considered given Carnival's background, would be to restore the rest of the line to Whitehorse, and also to institute boat service of some sort on Bennett Lake and Nares Lake, and also on the Yukon River at Whitehorse. Both marine operations were once part of the Pacific and Arctic Railway and Navigation Company (one of the corporate entities of White Pass & Yukon in the past).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Klondike

http://www.steamboats.org/traveller/yuk ... ndike.html

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Carnival Cruises buys White Pass & Yukon
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:55 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3341
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
A surprising number of steam locomotives that either ran on the White Pass or were associated with it are still around. Not all will be available, of course.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_W ... s_and_cars


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 Post subject: Re: Carnival Cruises buys White Pass & Yukon
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:33 am 

Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:28 pm
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The limiting factor in any extensions to existing shore excursions is time. As far as I know, ships only stop for one day and all activities have to fit within that port layover. The ships want to make sure passengers are all back on board before scheduled departure. The longer and farther away from the ship the excursion goes, it increases the chance that some unforseen circumstance would cause the ship to have to delay departure throwing their schedule out of kilter and irritating those who chose not to take that particular excursion.

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 Post subject: Re: Carnival Cruises buys White Pass & Yukon
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:01 pm 

Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 10:30 pm
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Location: Bucks County, PA
WVNorthern wrote:
The limiting factor in any extensions to existing shore excursions is time. As far as I know, ships only stop for one day and all activities have to fit within that port layover. The ships want to make sure passengers are all back on board before scheduled departure. The longer and farther away from the ship the excursion goes, it increases the chance that some unforseen circumstance would cause the ship to have to delay departure throwing their schedule out of kilter and irritating those who chose not to take that particular excursion.


However, by purchasing the line, they could now perhaps offer overnight stops for their own ships - offer longer trips for their own passengers on Carnival ships, change their own itineraries to match longer trips with the railroad itself. Whereas before, they were at the "mercy" of the railroad. Now that they own the railroad, perhaps they can expand the offerings for their own customers..

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 Post subject: Re: Carnival Cruises buys White Pass & Yukon
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:09 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3341
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
bigjim4life wrote:
WVNorthern wrote:
The limiting factor in any extensions to existing shore excursions is time. As far as I know, ships only stop for one day and all activities have to fit within that port layover. The ships want to make sure passengers are all back on board before scheduled departure. The longer and farther away from the ship the excursion goes, it increases the chance that some unforseen circumstance would cause the ship to have to delay departure throwing their schedule out of kilter and irritating those who chose not to take that particular excursion.


However, by purchasing the line, they could now perhaps offer overnight stops for their own ships - offer longer trips for their own passengers on Carnival ships, change their own itineraries to match longer trips with the railroad itself. Whereas before, they were at the "mercy" of the railroad. Now that they own the railroad, perhaps they can expand the offerings for their own customers..


Or even a "Go one way, return another" combination with a seagoing vessel, a riverboat, and a train.

The Yukon River is apparently navigable for its length from Whitehorse. It's principle handicap in terms of scheduling is a very strong current that in the days of paddlewheelers, meant a trip upriver took five days, vs. only one or two downriver.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukon_River

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steamboat ... ukon_River

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moyie_(sternwheeler)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... ukon_River


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