It is currently Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:35 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 198 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 14  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:01 am 

Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:46 pm
Posts: 69
softwerkslex wrote:
Does anybody know what the alignment of the track was before I-5 was built?


The alignment in this location is the same as it was previously. It is fairly close to the junction with the BNSF mainline. Given the topography, realigning things here would be a major project.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:33 am 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1321
Apparently, the train entered the 30 mph curve at 80 mph and jumped the track without any brake application by the engineer. If the engineer had somehow become unaware of the approaching curve, I would expect that he would have become fully aware as the curve became completely evident right in front of him. I would expect him to have made an emergency application at that instant even though it was too late to stop. Yet he made no brake application before or during the derailment process. Apparently, the brakes automatically made an emergency application due to the separation of air hoses after the derailment began.

http://katu.com/news/local/ntsb-deraile ... -activated

“Preliminary information indicates that the emergency brake on the Amtrak train that derailed in Washington state went off automatically, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) said.

NTSB member Bella Dinh-Zarr told reporters Tuesday that the brake was not manually activated by the engineer.”


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:54 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:00 pm
Posts: 787
Location: NJ
One of the first reports said that while the train was PTC equipped, the contractor that is installing the sensors on this line will not have that task completed until April, 2018.

Later!
Mr. Ed


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:23 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:46 pm
Posts: 69
I think it should be noted that the 'old' route that trains were being moved from also does not have PTC operational. There was a derailment on that line earlier this year when a train went through a derail protecting a draw span.

There has been a fair amount of consternation expressed through the media that service was started on the new line before PTC was implemented. Given the option was to continue using a more congested route that also doesn't have PTC, I think the choice to start service now is defensible.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:19 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 776
Not to start a war, but is there a good reason we preservation-focused folk are discussing this unfortunate incident?

Seems it's being discussed ad infinitum on many other boards.

Just wondering.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:53 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:01 pm
Posts: 1473
Location: SouthEast Pennsylvania
softwerkslex wrote:
Some definitions:

ATS - Automatic Train Stop. This is not ATC. It means brake activation at red signals.

ATC - Automatic Train Control. This means speed supervision, usually limited to places that balises or communications devices are installed at fixed positions.

ERTMS - European Rail Traffic Management System, has 3 levels. Level 1 is discrete with communications essentially the same as today based on track hardware. Level 2 is radio or wireless and discards most track communications hardware and discards visual signals at trackside. Level 3 discards fixed track segments and implements moving block. Level 3 is theoretical and there are no current forecast installations.

ETCS- European Train Control System - the technical component of the signals in ERTMS
CSS - Cab Signal System. (This can be used without any of the other abbreviations.) Signal aspects are displayed inside the train operator's cab, even if there are no trackside signals.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:54 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1384
Location: Strasburg, PA
Lincoln Penn wrote:
Not to start a war, but is there a good reason we preservation-focused folk are discussing this unfortunate incident?

Seems it's being discussed ad infinitum on many other boards.

Just wondering.

I agree, with a challenge. Mr. Penn, please start a thread that is preservation focused and hopefully exciting enough to provoke five pages of replies.

Thanks.

I recall the Trains biography of ninety something Ed "On Time" Tyner on the SP in California. He said(approximately), "I remember double heading #2400's behind [engineer?] on the Owl one night. Our second engine had loose driving boxes and we wobbled like mad. Went around [?] curve about twenty five miles per hour over the limit and I just knew that we would never hold the rails. We made it though and afterwards, the fireman came over and said, "If we can survive this kind of running, I guess we won't die before our time." I guess the kid was right."

_________________
"It was not easy to convince Allnutt. All his shop training had given him a profound prejudice against inexact work, experimental work, hit-or-miss work."
C. S. Forester

Strasburg Rail Road Mechanical Department


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:26 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:36 pm
Posts: 197
Quote:
I would expect him to have made an emergency application at that instant even though it was too late to stop. Yet he made no brake application before or during the derailment process.


Probably too busy kissing his own a** goodby to think about opening the big hole. That footage will be the clincher if ever released. One has to wonder if the Engineer was even at the controls when the accident occurred. How many times have we all heard stories about Conductors taking the throttle while the Engineer is using the facilities. Although one would think that even the most dim witted Assistant Conductor would know how to put the train into emergency if something were going wrong.

I for one prefer the conversation on this board vs some of the others I have been reading on this subject. Quite a few more educated minds and experienced hands rather then the typical drone of railfans and kids found elsewhere.

_________________
"What smells like Lube Oil and Diesel? Oh It's just my Locomotive Breath"


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:12 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 776
Kelly Anderson wrote:
Lincoln Penn wrote:
Not to start a war, but is there a good reason we preservation-focused folk are discussing this unfortunate incident?

Seems it's being discussed ad infinitum on many other boards.

Just wondering.

I agree, with a challenge. Mr. Penn, please start a thread that is preservation focused and hopefully exciting enough to provoke five pages of replies.

Thanks.

I recall the Trains biography of ninety something Ed "On Time" Tyner on the SP in California. He said(approximately), "I remember double heading #2400's behind [engineer?] on the Owl one night. Our second engine had loose driving boxes and we wobbled like mad. Went around [?] curve about twenty five miles per hour over the limit and I just knew that we would never hold the rails. We made it though and afterwards, the fireman came over and said, "If we can survive this kind of running, I guess we won't die before our time." I guess the kid was right."


OK, how about we start another one about the K4, Age of Steam Roundhouse, the new T1, NYC Hudsons, CSRM, etc.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:29 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 538
Lincoln Penn wrote:
Not to start a war, but is there a good reason we preservation-focused folk are discussing this unfortunate incident?

Seems it's being discussed ad infinitum on many other boards.

Just wondering.


It may seem I am grasping at straws but for me this case is very preservation related in that it involves the preservation of something through current use, in this case the old NP main, which had been out of service for years. I have been following the project for years, re-use or rebuilding of track is up there toward the top for me (I was really fascinated with the KCS rebuild of the Macaroni line in TX for example). But in general I would say you are right that we don't want this board to turn into the other ones (that I won't mention).

Edit: It also has occurred to me that this is a good lesson in the importance of maintaining institutional knowledge, and what happens when an organization that mostly deals with highways opens a new section of track. I wonder how many times the engineer in question had actually been down the new line, and whether they should have had him training a new crewman on the first run instead of maintaining his focus. Should they have had an RFE, or perhaps even a retiree accompany all the runs the first week, instead of having all the big shots on the run?


Last edited by PMC on Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:42 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:05 pm
Posts: 718
Location: MA
I remember I used to have a VHS collection of public domain train films. One of them I think from the Pennsylvania Railroad showed an automatic Train control system I think cab signaling. Even alerted the dispatcher when a stop was made. When the dispatcher inquired to the engineer was going on the engineer for the dispatcher he had some "motion picture folk" on board and was demonstrating the system. Any of you know what film I'm talking about


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:47 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:43 am
Posts: 520
I don't have any 'positive' confirmation but I am about 95% sure the last passenger killed was also a railfan. He at least used to be in IT. He was also a convicted child porn offender. So maybe some uncomfortable moments coming up....


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:49 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3302
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
RCD wrote:
I remember I used to have a VHS collection of public domain train films. One of them I think from the Pennsylvania Railroad showed an automatic Train control system I think cab signaling. Even alerted the dispatcher when a stop was made. When the dispatcher inquired to the engineer was going on the engineer for the dispatcher he had some "motion picture folk" on board and was demonstrating the system. Any of you know what film I'm talking about


Indeed I do! It's "Progress on the Rails," and supposedly dates from 1952. The cab signal demonstration segment starts at about 3:44:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6rWOrL9sGY

A less detailed demonstration is shown in "Clear Track Ahead," from 1946, at 10:58:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UXuZxchOCA

I'll admit, I spend too damn much time on Facebook. But one thing that's been a bit of fun now and then is on the modern rail groups there, including the high speed people, I get to tell them that we had this technology way back. You would be surprised at some of the reactions I get from people who didn't know this dates back to at least the 1920s, that the PRR did so much with it, and that it's the basis, if not entirely the same system, used by Amtrak today, and by CSX on the former RF&P.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:57 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2226
Lincoln Penn wrote:
Not to start a war, but is there a good reason we preservation-focused folk are discussing this unfortunate incident?

Seems it's being discussed ad infinitum on many other boards.

Just wondering.


When things like this happen we will talk about it, there are plenty of other threads out there for your interest.
Right now I am more waiting for any more info from the investigation. In the 50's there was train stop mechanism at red signals, if you pass it, it knocks the train in emergency.
Maybe we need a reduce speed mechanism like that and you dont need PTC.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Amtrak Derailment in Washington State
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:41 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 776
dinwitty wrote:
Lincoln Penn wrote:
Not to start a war, but is there a good reason we preservation-focused folk are discussing this unfortunate incident?

Seems it's being discussed ad infinitum on many other boards.

Just wondering.


When things like this happen we will talk about it, there are plenty of other threads out there for your interest.
Right now I am more waiting for any more info from the investigation. In the 50's there was train stop mechanism at red signals, if you pass it, it knocks the train in emergency.
Maybe we need a reduce speed mechanism like that and you dont need PTC.


Well, excuse me. I thought this was a preservation site, not yet another current foamer gossip site.

And you are very wrong about "the '50s." Very few lines had anything like what you describe. Besides, there is nothing to indicate there was any signal, red or otherwise, here that had anything to do with this.


Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 198 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 14  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


 Who is online

Users browsing this forum: airforcerail, Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], HudsonL, p51, robertmacdowell, Schultz and 74 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: