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 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:47 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2221
Location: Northern Illinois
Thank you. Too bad there is no LIKE button.

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 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:04 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 359
Dennis Storzek wrote:
Thank you. Too bad there is no LIKE button.


Roger that. Clear, confident, and concise. No insults, no condescending nonsense, and not a whiff of impatience. Just what I'd want if I were retaining counsel.


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 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:25 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2226
Meghan wrote:
dinwitty wrote:
David Notarius wrote:
https://www.facebook.com/allaboardforashokan/photos/a.351636028276336.1073741829.351628611610411/1390925007680761/?type=3&theater interesting FB post


How do you abandon and run trains again? Apparently -de-abandoned- without notice or not abandoned.
For (I hope) the last time: "abandonment" here means abandonment of COMMON CARRIER RIGHTS AND OBLIGATION. It has nothing to do with ownership of property or running trains. It has come up here apparently as a legal technicality concerning STB jurisdiction over the line under the National Trails Act.

Go look at the Wanamaker Kempton and Southern, or the switching operation at the Valero refinery in South Jersey. Both of these are active operating railroads with no common carrier obligation.

If you want to say that this is something invented by lawyers to confuse ordinary people I won't argue with you.

Meghan


This is not directly explaining what the county has done, again the STB has not said "abandoned" or "not abandoned".
The STB is responding to the Revitalization group. The county responded with an 88 page of reports like how I would see in Trains or Railroad/Railfan. The revitalization group is interested in getting this rail line doing good for the community, what happens here is an ongoing process. I said way earlier in some other post the county might quietly start pulling rail and they did that, the Revitalization group is saying "waitaminute".

We will have to see what happens at or by March 21.


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 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:58 am 

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:42 am
Posts: 8
Location: Either behind my desk or on my phone
The only thing which may or may not happen by March 21st is that Mr. Heffner may or may not file various motions in response to the County's pleading. If he does somebody will have to read them.

Right now the STB has two members out of an authorized five.Two more have been appointed by the President but as of the last time I looked have not yet been approved. Unless you enjoy cyanosis, don't hold your breath.

Meghan


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 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:11 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2226
What the Revitalization group needs to do is inform the county of their goals. Bringing the rail line back may be more than just returning the rails, but a qualified investment into it to do what the group may be looking to do, but also show the benefits what they are going for. Thats why I say they need head to head talks. I am not concerned about how many brains are on the STB, they are still the STB. If the county keeps clanking on their direction then this will get sorely ugly.


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 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:45 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:35 pm
Posts: 329
Location: NJ
dinwitty,

Serious question for you; Are you from this area of New York? Or do you live elsewhere?

The County has owned the railroad since the early 1980s. Gave a group a 30+ year lease to make a go of the entire line. Lease term was to restore a mile of track each year. They didn't meet the goals set in the lease terms. By 2010 only a few miles (perhaps 5) had been restored to operation. The rail line has continued to deteriorate. New sections washed out, bridges washed away or removed and tree growth within and adjacent to the grade that make it impassible.

This area of New York continues to suffer large out migration, business losses, and continually increasing environmental restrictions on property development to prevent contamination of the local NYC reservoirs. There will never be a large factory, warehouse or freight customer along this right of way. There will never be the population growth or density needed to support any type of regular passenger rail business on this right of way. Even the local ski resorts don't bring in the people needed to support winter train rides.

The County has decided to go in a different direction with their property. And a new group pops up to preserve the rails as rails are being pulled. Where was this group 30 years ago, 10 years ago, or even 5 years ago? This new group has a vision but no money. It is begging for funds to cover legal fees on Facebook and elsewhere.

From where is this "investment" you speak of going to come? The County is investing, in a trail. They gave the CMRR 30 years to make a return on the rail line. It didn't work. Now CMRR has a small, manageable piece to use in Kingston and are making a go of it.

Head to head talks with this group would accomplish nothing as the County has already decided their direction and is fulfilling their vision. More rails are being pulled every day.


dinwitty wrote:
What the Revitalization group needs to do is inform the county of their goals. Bringing the rail line back may be more than just returning the rails, but a qualified investment into it to do what the group may be looking to do, but also show the benefits what they are going for. Thats why I say they need head to head talks. I am not concerned about how many brains are on the STB, they are still the STB. If the county keeps clanking on their direction then this will get sorely ugly.

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 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:50 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2226
We don't know what tomorrow will bring, I am waiting for the next step to happen. Why would the word "revitalization" be in the U&D's name, its there for a reason and a purpose.


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 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:04 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 359
Meghan wrote:
Right now the STB has two members out of an authorized five.Two more have been appointed by the President but as of the last time I looked have not yet been approved. Unless you enjoy cyanosis, don't hold your breath. Meghan


Being that I am unfamiliar with STB practice, I'd appreciate if you could please elaborate on how the board functions. Do all board members review all cases and then vote or do they individually decide cases that are assigned to them? In the former scenario, if there are only two currently serving, then how is a 1-1 voting tie resolved? In either case, there are now only two doing the work of five so one would expect a slower response and thus your reference to blue body parts. Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:24 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:35 pm
Posts: 329
Location: NJ
dinwitty,

You didn't answer my question about living in the area.

But I do admire your optimism.

dinwitty wrote:
We don't know what tomorrow will bring, I am waiting for the next step to happen. Why would the word "revitalization" be in the U&D's name, its there for a reason and a purpose.

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 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:19 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2226
cjvrr wrote:
dinwitty,

You didn't answer my question about living in the area.

But I do admire your optimism.

dinwitty wrote:
We don't know what tomorrow will bring, I am waiting for the next step to happen. Why would the word "revitalization" be in the U&D's name, its there for a reason and a purpose.


I live in SW Michigan not too far from the South Shore which had its time of near passenger abandonment.
It took a buyer bailout, then then NICTD took it over.

There are many ways for financial sources, my response is always the same like restoring a steam engine, first up is a federal grant, or search out investors, or open up the donate coffers, (but I wonder if that will really raise enough funds) GoFundMe, ask CMRR to run a fundraising train, invite the steamer they had earlier for a run or so and have some kind of specialties on the train.

Point is if you build Disneyland people will come, but this isnt Disneyland, but you have to look at what the line offers, and that is its scenery, and people living in New York will most likely enjoy a jaunt away from their daily hectic lives and kick back and enjoy a scenic leisurely cruise, get some kind of touristically trappy things around that make it enjoyable.

Don't blame the CMRR or whomever operated the line about getting some trackage fixed up, they can only do so much, and they are built on volunteers. The real responsibility is on the County owning the line.

You should support the U&DR they got the ideas on. Where however they suddenly showed up on the scene I dunno but its obvious they've got the right idea and the County is being a problem. They are looking at getting the interest back in the area in any ways means possible with the rail line. We all know about the various line problems but can't just keep stickying around on them, you get the get up and going and get them fixed and find the means to do it.

If the U&DR is suggesting going electric go get a classic trolley or 2 and you run back and forth, picking up dropping off passengers on demand, they could have like a daily pass or season passes they pay for or you could pay as you go also, or you just pay an entry and ride free all day. This kind of operation can be extremely economical, the cars are light rail and can run on not exactly perfect track. They would be none of the problems you would expect the fears of the county of a diesel locomotive. This would appease the ecological concerns.

If anybody needs answers on trolleys they should go talk up the nearby trolley museum.


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 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:41 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:09 pm
Posts: 339
cjvrr wrote:
dinwitty,

Serious question for you; Are you from this area of New York? Or do you live elsewhere?

The County has owned the railroad since the early 1980s. Gave a group a 30+ year lease to make a go of the entire line. Lease term was to restore a mile of track each year. They didn't meet the goals set in the lease terms. By 2010 only a few miles (perhaps 5) had been restored to operation. The rail line has continued to deteriorate. New sections washed out, bridges washed away or removed and tree growth within and adjacent to the grade that make it impassible.

This area of New York continues to suffer large out migration, business losses, and continually increasing environmental restrictions on property development to prevent contamination of the local NYC reservoirs. There will never be a large factory, warehouse or freight customer along this right of way. There will never be the population growth or density needed to support any type of regular passenger rail business on this right of way. Even the local ski resorts don't bring in the people needed to support winter train rides.

The County has decided to go in a different direction with their property. And a new group pops up to preserve the rails as rails are being pulled. Where was this group 30 years ago, 10 years ago, or even 5 years ago? This new group has a vision but no money. It is begging for funds to cover legal fees on Facebook and elsewhere.

From where is this "investment" you speak of going to come? The County is investing, in a trail. They gave the CMRR 30 years to make a return on the rail line. It didn't work. Now CMRR has a small, manageable piece to use in Kingston and are making a go of it.

Head to head talks with this group would accomplish nothing as the County has already decided their direction and is fulfilling their vision. More rails are being pulled every day.


dinwitty wrote:
What the Revitalization group needs to do is inform the county of their goals. Bringing the rail line back may be more than just returning the rails, but a qualified investment into it to do what the group may be looking to do, but also show the benefits what they are going for. Thats why I say they need head to head talks. I am not concerned about how many brains are on the STB, they are still the STB. If the county keeps clanking on their direction then this will get sorely ugly.


Somebody that finally gets it..


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 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:28 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 523
cjvrr wrote:
There will never be a large factory, warehouse or freight customer along this right of way.
Great post cjvrr, but I couldn't resist quoting the above line before posting the following:
Quote:
Lumber company wants to use Catskill Mountain Railroad

KINGSTON – The Catskill Mountain Railroad, which is currently used for tourist travel, could adopt a second use as a commercial freight line.

The railroad, in the Kingston area, has received a request from Williams Lumber and Home Centers to allow it to ship 75 to 110 carloads of lumber per year to feed its retail locations in Ulster, Greene and
and
Quote:
Williams Lumber President Don Williams said his company has been looking for an economic alternative to the high cost of shipping by truck.
Link to full article in the March 21, 2018 Mid Hudson News: Lumber company wants to use Catskill Mountain Railroad


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 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:09 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:12 am
Posts: 479
Location: Somewhere off the coast of New England
Unfortunately there is no compelling need for the lumber company to establish a transload on the Catskill Mountain. None of their facilities appear to be located on or near the the line (See note) and they have appeared very late in the game. If they had a facility which was on or adjacent to the line and the issue had come up a year or five ago I daresay we could make the argument. Since the bulk of their facilities are not rail served (requiring a transload anyway), one has some limited potential for direct service, and there are other suitable locations in the lumber company's service area the argument is simply not persuasive.

GME

Note: There appears to be a facility near Accord which is located on the Kingston Branch - of the New York Ontario and Western abandoned in 1957 - and another on the in Tannersville on the Huckleberry Railroad which connected with the original Catskill (Katterskill) Mountain and these were connected to the General System by the Otis Elevating Railway. The do have a facility in Hopewell Junction very near the connection between the Beacon Secondary and the Maybrook Line and I believe that at least unofficially that track is also out of service.


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 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:13 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:56 pm
Posts: 18
I really think that few if any took it upon themselves to look at Google Maps and go to the Satellite View. I have asked questions about the stretch between 28 A and Basin Rd a few times. There is an Asphalt company there and while the aggregate supply is near by, they need the liquid asphalt AC 20 and can use Propane to fire the Kiln. This is an on-line destination. This the "business area" that the RR could serve. When I worked for Conrail, these aggregates industries were my customers so I do know what I am talking about.

There is an on-line lumber yard.

I have asked questions about why the county was so determined to pull this rail when it may not even fall in the jurisdiction of the DEP property? If it does belong to the DEP, then there is a business between the water and the railroad. And why aren't these folks being "strong armed" to leave.

I also find it very surprising that Conrail did not have a side-track agreement with the recycling firm. The fact that they were in the "station" of Kingston made the rates work even if they we not directly on Conrail but in an "industrial park. Conrail would not provide service to anyone without a valid service agreement and an engineering inspection. It looks like there was no "short-line" agreement either and that too is odd because there is the liability for damage and a requirement for demurrage. If the car could not be ACTUAL PLACED, it had to be CONSTRUCTIVELY PLACED. Then the union would have every right to demand that they do the placement. No shortline was allowed to run on Conrail and displace union work. So this story has some holes in it and people have not really investigated to service to the former patron.

My personal belief is that once the rails are pulled, paid for the DEP, the DEP will use the 1 month notice and cancel the county deal. They will have duped the country officials and the trail lovers. Nobody will be allowed inside the boundaries. The DEP could not have pulled this off if it had stated those intentions to start with. They would have had no allies with the county or trail lovers. It was a brilliant scheme and I think that the county exec has known all along of these intentions.


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 Post subject: Re: ULSTER & DELAWARE REVITALIZATION CORP.--PETITION FOR DEC
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:15 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:48 am
Posts: 347
Location: Clayton NC
Trainlawyer wrote:
None of their facilities appear to be located on or near the the line...

Williams Lumber had a retail store at 101 Smith St, which is right next to the former switch location. There's someone else in that storefront now, but maybe Williams still has warehouse space there?

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