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 Post subject: Re: UPRR 3985?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:09 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:27 am
Posts: 17
I have a friend in the steam program one of the boilermakers there. He is my source I am not going to name him. We went to HS together he was hired in after he retired from the Navy as Engine Room Chief. He was one of the last members of the Black gang ever in the Navy his the Kitty Hawk was retired and was the last oil burning ship in the navy. He loves the railroad saw the UP was looking for help and applied and was hired into Cheyenne. Well he was there for the change over between Steve Lee and Ed. Then the 3985 and they started to look at her. Ed himself made the call to pull 844 out of service. Why they found stay bolts in 3985 that had no weep hole to show if they were broken no certified materials used in Stay bolts in both 844 and 3985. Uncertified steel was used as a patch in the Boiler shell of the 3985 in the pressure vessel itself. Then there was the asbestos that was found on 844 close to 60 pounds during her last overhaul. They found tubes that were supposed to be routed outside the firebox that carried water where ended in the firebox on both. Here is the biggest issue they found the airbrake stand on 844. They had paperwork that said it had been torn down and rebuilt in the overhaul in the 90's yet they found factory applied seals and gaskets inside the stand. It had never been torn down in her entire service life.

The asbestos they had paperwork from the 80's that all of it had been removed from the 844. The air compressors neither of them had been rebuilt ever. That part caused me to remember something I read in the 90's and verify it. Anyone remember that article in Trains Magazine when the 844 was Overhauled in 90's on her break-in run one of the air compressors failed Steve Lee went screw it there are 2 if the other one fails then and only then will we fix it.

The old hands did things according to my friend haphazard at times. They had the resources to keep them running in top shape. They kept taking the easy way out. Now things are being run different and everyone is responsible for their work.


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 Post subject: Re: UPRR 3985?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:12 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8597
Location: Somewhere between Baltimore, MD and Prescott, AZ
Lincoln Penn wrote:
ALL of the above has been documented and verified on this and other sites. It was blocked here at RYPN under the excuse that it was considered a personal attack on UP management in general and other persons specifically.


Here's my problem--and I'm not a moderator:

So much has been alleged by so many folks online--many using pseudonyms instead of real names--that if Ed Dickens or Steve Lee themselves walked up with paperwork documentation, I would demand ID from them, and inspect the paperwork to see if it came from the same printer that produced the forged documents CBS used to smear Bush (and ruin careers at the top of CBS in the process). I'm sorry, but I was raised by journalists--"If your mother says she loves you, check it out from other sources."

I mean, I could start a twenty-page screaming match just asking whether UP's steam program really uses Six Sigma or not.

And the pettiness and vindictiveness has gotten to a point where I don't care any more, even about the real prospect of seeing a Big Boy in operation.

We don't need that here. Make accusations or observations all you want, but sign your real name so the libel lawyers go after you, not us.

And I have the feeling that 4014 could run systemwide in service at track speed for ten years and some certain disgruntled character would still follow it around screaming "WATCH OUT, IT'S GONNA BLOW UP!!!"


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 Post subject: Re: UPRR 3985?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:24 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:41 pm
Posts: 106
ironeagle2006 wrote:
I have a friend in the steam program one of the boilermakers there. He is my source I am not going to name him. We went to HS together he was hired in after he retired from the Navy as Engine Room Chief. He was one of the last members of the Black gang ever in the Navy his the Kitty Hawk was retired and was the last oil burning ship in the navy. He loves the railroad saw the UP was looking for help and applied and was hired into Cheyenne. Well he was there for the change over between Steve Lee and Ed. Then the 3985 and they started to look at her. Ed himself made the call to pull 844 out of service. Why they found stay bolts in 3985 that had no weep hole to show if they were broken no certified materials used in Stay bolts in both 844 and 3985. Uncertified steel was used as a patch in the Boiler shell of the 3985 in the pressure vessel itself. Then there was the asbestos that was found on 844 close to 60 pounds during her last overhaul. They found tubes that were supposed to be routed outside the firebox that carried water where ended in the firebox on both. Here is the biggest issue they found the airbrake stand on 844. They had paperwork that said it had been torn down and rebuilt in the overhaul in the 90's yet they found factory applied seals and gaskets inside the stand. It had never been torn down in her entire service life.

The asbestos they had paperwork from the 80's that all of it had been removed from the 844. The air compressors neither of them had been rebuilt ever. That part caused me to remember something I read in the 90's and verify it. Anyone remember that article in Trains Magazine when the 844 was Overhauled in 90's on her break-in run one of the air compressors failed Steve Lee went screw it there are 2 if the other one fails then and only then will we fix it.

The old hands did things according to my friend haphazard at times. They had the resources to keep them running in top shape. They kept taking the easy way out. Now things are being run different and everyone is responsible for their work.



This post is a direct example of why some think RYPN is dying.


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 Post subject: Re: UPRR 3985?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:37 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5353
Location: southeastern USA
Not dying.... just consider the credibility of a given source and likelihood of veracity - remember, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. A bit of asbestos insulation escaped? Not unlikely..... it's stuck in a lot of not obvious locations. Using steel with no pedigree? Very unlikely without something more than secondhand rumors to back it up. Six Sigma? Who cares, just so long as the results are good.

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 Post subject: Re: UPRR 3985?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:46 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:43 am
Posts: 495
Location: Floyd, AR
The basic question has been answered by UP,3985 will be fixed, but later. Of course that isn't a guarantee of anything. UP could do anything from running all 3 (or more if they want) at once to cancelling the entire program tomorrow and sending it all to scrap. But the official word (through Ed) is yes and later.

This whole argument has gotten tired. There are reasons to love and hate both the old and new crew. MOST (not all) of the outspoken old crew have chosen to hide behind nicknames and dislike the new crew, and UP doesn't seem interested in making official statements that their old steam crew was terrible(no surprise there). In the end, we're left with little hard evidence of what the real story is. The one person who could settle this with his reputation is likely Steve Lee, and he has chosen to either stay quiet or he's hiding behind his own nickname.

It would seem that the old crew has contacted UP management and voiced their concerns, and I'll bet UP has a constant stream of letters about it from the railfan community. Also likely that some people from the UP read the online forums. UP's main interest is publicity and goodwill, and if they were convinced that the current program was going to get someone hurt, they would change it. Of course, they could be wrong.

All that said, the latest 'version' from iron eagle is just about useless. No offense. No more evidence then there was before, and I have to question, just how do they know that the brake valve and compressors were -never- torn down? And if you're so intent on protecting him, why give us his whole life story?

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 Post subject: Re: UPRR 3985?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:10 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:27 am
Posts: 17
The video evidence is out there on the brake stand Ed himself reported on it himself at one of his video updates from Denver at that RR convention he speaks at every year. IIRC it was the 2015. That is when the asbestos was reported to the public and the other issues were made public. He did bring it out to the Public. He laid it all out with photographic evidence to back him up on the stays the asbestos and on how they had jury rigged repairs for years on the 844.
Here you go these where the quality of repairs Steve Lee was doing on 844 3985 during his time in charge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsPl73r ... TX&index=2


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 Post subject: Re: UPRR 3985?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:12 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 771
The 800-pound gorilla in the room is Thus:

IF the program was so shoddily run for 20+years and IF so many corners were being cut all those years in spite of huge budgets, and IF paperwork was being "doctored," how was the program was so successful for so long and ran as many trips as it did, both in total and annually?

Was it just luck? It probably wasn't glib presentations to gullible foamers. Maybe it was smoke and mirrors? Or maybe it never happened at all?

Too many of the claims made these days simply do not pass the smell test.

And it seems that some people are spending too much time and money distracting from their own foibles.

Flat wheels, anybody? Boiler and firebox so packed with mud and scale the nearly-new side sheets had to be cut out to get to it all?


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 Post subject: Re: UPRR 3985?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:55 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:34 pm
Posts: 1959
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
I think many, many stories and accurate documents can be found showing how the industry (we) have changed over 50 years. That is, we have transitioned from patching and repairing antiques to effectively building from new with some transferred old material. Two examples I can think of are the San Francisco Cable Cars and the 4501. One could spin these events positively or negatively. Think of all the patched, bent, worn out pieces of 4501. One could say, "hey, why were they running that thing in service?", while others might say, "hey, they threw out half the engine". I was rather amused that FEC 148 at Strasburg shops has essentially a new engine truck, but they reused the axles.

At our operation, we have effectively also made that transition. Example: HHB 4, our ten wheel tank engine. The boiler on it was "rebuilt" 6-8 years ago, and actually test fired in 2014. But then our new, younger crew took over, and after an inspection, said "nope", the standards were not high enough and hundreds of staybolts needed replacing. So it basically took a step backwards and everything came out again.

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 Post subject: Re: UPRR 3985?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:49 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:27 am
Posts: 17
I called my friend and asked him flat out is 3985 going to be returned to active service. His answer to me was this. It better be after all the new parts we just ordered for her. They have ordered New Crossheads drawbars boiler tubing superheater tubes and other materials needed to do the same level of overhauling that 4014 and 844 are getting for her. He also goes we have been told by Omaha that we are not coming off 12 hour shifts until all 3 of them are running down the road.


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 Post subject: Re: UPRR 3985?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:42 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 3842
Location: Maine
Wouldn't the point of the Union Pacific restoration shop be, to put all three of these huge steam locomotives, all of which have spectacular followings, back into service? We're talking about a company which has been noted for its brand, its heritage role in US history, and operator of one of the most amazing and largest steam designs to ever grace the rails. Whenever UP sends out 844 or 3985, the payback in public appreciation and acknowledgement is huge. Add the biggest ever, and line them up?
U.P. has the funds, has the foresight, and appreciates what the investment returns. Of course, all three locomotives are coming back!

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 Post subject: Re: UPRR 3985?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:25 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:58 am
Posts: 26
Lincoln Penn wrote:
The 800-pound gorilla in the room is Thus:

IF the program was so shoddily run for 20+years and IF so many corners were being cut all those years in spite of huge budgets, and IF paperwork was being "doctored," how was the program was so successful for so long and ran as many trips as it did, both in total and annually?

Was it just luck? It probably wasn't glib presentations to gullible foamers. Maybe it was smoke and mirrors? Or maybe it never happened at all?

Too many of the claims made these days simply do not pass the smell test.

And it seems that some people are spending too much time and money distracting from their own foibles.

Flat wheels, anybody? Boiler and firebox so packed with mud and scale the nearly-new side sheets had to be cut out to get to it all?



Please take a look at the pictures in this thread on Trainorders.com from 2014:

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/ ... 166,page=1

To put it plainly, the folks that allowed that to happen in this century do not have any credibility with me.

Brian


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 Post subject: Re: UPRR 3985?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:34 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1320
Location: Strasburg, PA
choodude wrote:
To put it plainly, the folks that allowed that to happen in this century do not have any credibility with me.


And someone who goes by Choodude is supposed to have credibility with me?

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 Post subject: Re: UPRR 3985?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:00 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:58 am
Posts: 26
Kelly Anderson wrote:
choodude wrote:
To put it plainly, the folks that allowed that to happen in this century do not have any credibility with me.


And someone who goes by Choodude is supposed to have credibility with me?



So perhaps folks working for a large corporation in the railroad industry prefer to remain anonymous until they retire.

So what did you think of the pictures?

Brian


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 Post subject: Re: UPRR 3985?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:21 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 1320
Location: Strasburg, PA
choodude wrote:
So what did you think of the pictures?

I have never sprung for TrainOders, so all I can see are the thunbnails. They look like typical used tubes at that size.

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 Post subject: Re: UPRR 3985?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:38 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 11:22 am
Posts: 84
Location: Northeast Pa.
A brake stand that was never torn down in it's entire service life? I know they made stuff to last back in the day but.... get real. Anyone who works on machines with pneumatic systems knows what nonsense that is.


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