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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:00 am 

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:27 am
Posts: 494
Location: Winters, TX
jasonsobczynski wrote:
Do a favor, let me know where else we went wrong in saving this locomotive.

Cheers,

Jason


I think you did as much as any one person could do for the locomotive given the time constraints and unforeseen circumstances that arose. Once the city became involved and asserted their ownership, I doubt if anything could have been done to fulfill your objectives. Still, seeking professional advice on how to proceed in dealing with the city might have given you a fighting chance. As MargaretSPfan suggested, putting together a team of advisors to deal with the legal and political issues would have increased the odds of success while taking the pressure off of you.

I do have one question for you. As this point, what more can you do for the 503? The city no longer needs to dispose of it and they haven't shown any interest in accepting your proposal that I know of. Plus they have far more important things to deal with. Yes, I donated to the 503 fund but I also donated to the Hurricane Harvey relief fund. It would upset me to learn that any of that money went to fixing up a dilapidated locomotive that was dilapidated long before Harvey paid its visit.


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:50 am 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1359
jasonsobczynski wrote:
Do a favor, let me know where else we went wrong in saving this locomotive.

Cheers,

Jason


Jason,

Do you mean that some things went wrong in saving the locomotive, but it has been saved, and that fulfills the mission of the fundraising? Or do you mean that because some things went wrong, the mission to save the locomotive has failed?


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:30 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5505
Location: southeastern USA
My reading - it depends on the definition of the mission. Yes, it is saved from the crisis that precipitated the process but the long term future is not yet determined. No, all the conditions listed as part of what "saved" means in the crowdfunding listing are not and won't likely be met, unless the city changes it mind about their level of interest/investment. My understanding (not being a lawyer) is that if all the conditions listed in the fund "ask" are not met, all donations will be refunded. I suppose anybody who doesn't want theirs back would best accept it as a refund, then redonate it without the unmet conditions involved to either the city or any subset of it earmarked for the 503, or to another restoration or project. But, it seems there's not a consensus on the ground in the city that the definitive outcome is carved in stone, so we're waiting to see what comes out of it all.

Money's already committed from the donor's POV - what's the rush? Let it finish playing out before getting riled about it.

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Corollary: "He who does is doomed to watch those who don't repeat it anyway."


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:43 am 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1359
Dave wrote:
My reading - it depends on the definition of the mission. Yes, it is saved from the crisis that precipitated the process but the long term future is not yet determined. No, all the conditions listed as part of what "saved" means in the crowdfunding listing are not and won't likely be met, unless the city changes it mind about their level of interest/investment. My understanding (not being a lawyer) is that if all the conditions listed in the fund "ask" are not met, all donations will be refunded. I suppose anybody who doesn't want theirs back would best accept it as a refund, then redonate it without the unmet conditions involved to either the city or any subset of it earmarked for the 503, or to another restoration or project. But, it seems there's not a consensus on the ground in the city that the definitive outcome is carved in stone, so we're waiting to see what comes out of it all.

Money's already committed from the donor's POV - what's the rush? Let it finish playing out before getting riled about it.

I am not trying to rush this, nor am I riled up about it. I am just curious. It is fine to give it time to play out if there were any evidence or assurance that it is in the process of playing out. But the City Council has said that they never intended to dispose of the locomotive, and would like to retain it to preserve their history.


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:21 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
Posts: 3957
Location: Maine
What happened is, the city got tripped up in the original plan to dispose of "an eyesore", not a treasure. The preservation plan, backed by an enthusiastic chorus of historically minded people, put their money where their mouth is. The city rushed to save face and undertook a "plan" to cosmetically restore the locomotive (which was never originally intended). Now a half-assed plan has been put forward. It remains to be seen what they are willing to do to give a now recognized "historic artifact" it rightful dignity. Give it a year and don't return our money until the show is finished. It isn't over yet.

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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:23 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:19 pm
Posts: 1728
Location: Pottstown,Pa.
As I've said numerous times....it's time to move on. The engine is saved from the scrapper and the totally incompetent PA City Council will now bobble this ball around for eons.

Refund the donations with a thank you message to the donors and make good use of your time.

IMHO-Ross Rowland


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:48 am 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1359
Richard Glueck wrote:
What happened is, the city got tripped up in the original plan to dispose of "an eyesore", not a treasure. The preservation plan, backed by an enthusiastic chorus of historically minded people, put their money where their mouth is. The city rushed to save face and undertook a "plan" to cosmetically restore the locomotive (which was never originally intended). Now a half-assed plan has been put forward. It remains to be seen what they are willing to do to give a now recognized "historic artifact" it rightful dignity. Give it a year and don't return our money until the show is finished. It isn't over yet.


I understand that, but what I have described above is the viewpoint of the City Council. That is that they never intended to sell or dispose of 503, and they prefer to keep it in Port Arthur as part of their history. That objective does not include a restoration to operation, so it does not require a massive amount of funding. They have met their goal with the engine still on display where it has been. Over time, they may mount an effort to repaint the engine and improve the display.

Another interesting point is that, from the viewpoint of the City, the locomotive was never "saved" because they had no intention to dispose of it. Therefore, from the viewpoint of the City, it was not possible to fulfill a mission to save 503.


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:38 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5505
Location: southeastern USA
Well, from my perspective giving it in partial payment to a scrapper along with money to cut it up and make it go away sure looks like they wanted to dispose of it...... but others may disagree.

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Corollary: "He who does is doomed to watch those who don't repeat it anyway."


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:56 am 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1359
Dave wrote:
Well, from my perspective giving it in partial payment to a scrapper along with money to cut it up and make it go away sure looks like they wanted to dispose of it...... but others may disagree.

I understand that, but I am talking about the viewpoint of the City, and their viewpoint is the only thing that will decide the fate of the locomotive. That fate is what some are expecting to further "play out." However, it appears to me that the City has made their decision.


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:28 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:27 am
Posts: 494
Location: Winters, TX
I have to agree with Mr. Travis in that the city has made their decision through their actions.

So if the city decides to dispose of the 503 in the future, how will they do it? Will they accept Jason's original $35,000 offer or will they put it up for sale or auction where they can get the most bang for their buck? I suspect that they'll be keeping track of the situation in Canton with the W&LE 3960 to see how much value a locomotive in this condition has in today's economy.


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:46 pm 
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Posts: 1118
Location: Beaumont, Texas
The Texas State Railroad has approached the city in the past about purchasing it, and the local community said no. The engine has also been repainted in the past.

I really see this playing out like it has in times past; the engine stays where it is, eventually gets repainted and maybe a shelter over it, and that is it. Now that it and the ground it is sitting on has been abated, the TCEQ should be happy; and there should be no more calls to have the engine scrapped.

Certain officials in city government who had no appreciation about the history of the engine and the support it has within the community have also received their education; at least for the time being.

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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:41 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5505
Location: southeastern USA
This seems simple to me: If you think it's all over, ask for a refund. If you are willing to wait longer, don't.

_________________
Santayana: "He who does not remember the past is condemned to repeat it."
Corollary: "He who does is doomed to watch those who don't repeat it anyway."


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:08 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:45 am
Posts: 1118
Location: Beaumont, Texas
My comment has nothing to do with a refund; I just lived in the area for 17 years prior to Hurricane Rita, and attended church a mile or so from the park. I am familiar with the engine, and have visited it several times.

The locals now have a Facebook page for the engine. My point is there is a reason that it was there when both Rita and Harvey came through, and now that attention has been given to it and it has been abated; it is even less likely it is going anywhere.

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Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Project - New Address!

International Stationary Steam Engine Society


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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:18 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:21 pm
Posts: 424
Location: Columbus, OH
Some of you think refunds are due and you are entitled to your opinion. As a donor to the 503 GFM, I disagree. Jason is free to keep my donation in GFM as long as there is the slightest hope of liberating 503 from Port Arthur, and I believe there still is a chance. What government does one day they often undo the next, shifting with the prevailing wind. Once the initial furor to dies down and if the local effort to fails, they are back to having an eyesore with no money to address it, and someone with cash ready to make it go away AND not scrap it. Down the road a fair piece when the dust settles and reality sets in, the most expedient and politically convenient solution may well change from what it is now.

I am curious - part of the GFM was for acquisition of the 503 from Inland Environmental. Has the city of PA been offered cash up front for the locomotive from the amount raised for acquisition? Money talks, and talks more loudly to a city with financial problems.

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 Post subject: Re: L&A 503
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:39 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:21 pm
Posts: 424
Location: Columbus, OH
Update on the 503 fundraiser:

https://www.gofundme.com/help-save-the- ... aign=upd_n

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmk3rxw ... e=youtu.be

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http://www.spikesys.com/EBT East Broad Top Homepage
http://www.febt.org Friends of the East Broad Top
http://www.ebtrr.com East Broad Top Railroad


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