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 Post subject: Re: Major Announcement from Altoona Today - BREAKING NEWS
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:02 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am
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Location: Maine
I'm certain the enthusiastic response has to be heartening for the project, however by venturing so many opinions about what has to be done, this reminds me a bit of "Jeopardy". What is an answer for a problem not yet determined?
A crack team of locomotive savvy (track record) people need to review every piece of #1361, then determine where the funding will be spent, then offer the arm-chair experts an opportunity to tell them what to do, while going about their business in the most efficient manner.

Regarding staybolts, I've been advised that staybolts must be tracked all the way back to the origin of the steel, who and how they were manufactured. No short cuts on staybolts or you wind up regretting the work in which you've invested cash and time, at a later and more sufferable date.

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Last edited by Richard Glueck on Mon May 14, 2018 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Major Announcement from Altoona Today - BREAKING NEWS
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:41 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:58 pm
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and they need to keep things out in the open...especially if they are seeking donations


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 Post subject: Re: Major Announcement from Altoona Today - BREAKING NEWS
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:46 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:10 am
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AFAIK, the Tornado team has not selected a boiler manufacturer for their current project, P2 The Prince of Wales. It will be interesting to see who they go with, given the experiences they have had. - Rob

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 Post subject: Re: Major Announcement from Altoona Today - BREAKING NEWS
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 10:55 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:17 am
Posts: 64
Location: Rocky Hill, NJ
EDM wrote:
Quote:
There have been steam locomotives with tenders and cab signals that were designed to used in both directions. When running in reverse, the pickup bar was ahead of the leading axle on the tender. No matter where the cab signal equipment was mounted, in one direction it would not be on the lead unit. Jumper cables took care of the problem.

I'm very aware of steam running in reverse, with the pickup bar under the tender or water space on a tank engine. Some of the old CNJ commuter power comes to mind. But would this mean that the baggage or tool car has to be a permanent part of the consist and shoved ahead of the engine on a back-up move?

I thought I had come with a cost-effective solution to the cab signal issue years ago, but either NJT or the FRA said NO! I forget which, long time ago-

Just how much space does PTC take up? Could the electronics go under the tender, perhaps in an enclosure that copies the shape of the water scoop? And does it have to provide 'power knock-down', closing the throttle and centering the power reverse? Air is air, and should be pretty simple, in comparison.

Just questions that should be thought about, to make 1361 more usable over more routes. Why go to the effort and expense of this restoration if the locomotive is restricted to a limited number of places in which it can operate?

Having been to the last several PTC Conferences (now called SafeRail - and even spoken at one) and been in innumerable discussions at Short-line Association meetings, the one thing I'm certain about with PTC is that I am not an expert on the subject.

One of the many issues with with implementing PTC was that the mandated new technology required wireless and satellite communication rather than something as mundane as a pickup bar. We also need to remember that PTC is a system concept and not a defined thing or group of things which you can order from a vendor, install on a locomotive and then go anywhere PTC is in effect. Having said that it seems to me that if the steam locomotive were equipped with the necessary hardware for brake application and power knockdown, along with a GPS device, the communications equipment for the particular system the locomotive was operating over could be located almost anywhere -as long as it was connected to the hardware on the locomotive. As a backup the portable module could be connected directly to the train air (and ECB if appropriate) and programmed to believe it was X-many feet forward at the front of the train. The issue would then be FRA and railroad acceptance rather than hardware.

I suspect the folks at Fort Wayne are way out ahead of me on this and could shed some light.

M.E. Allen aka The Crossing Guy


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 Post subject: Re: Major Announcement from Altoona Today - BREAKING NEWS
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 2:05 pm 

Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:55 am
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robertjohndavis wrote:
AFAIK, the Tornado team has not selected a boiler manufacturer for their current project, P2 The Prince of Wales. It will be interesting to see who they go with, given the experiences they have had. - Rob


They are still doing business with Meiningen. Just in february they sent two air pumps for an overhaul.

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: Major Announcement from Altoona Today - BREAKING NEWS
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 2:45 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:01 pm
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Location: SouthEast Pennsylvania
Michael E. Allen wrote:
it seems to me that if the steam locomotive were equipped with the necessary hardware for brake application and power knockdown, along with a GPS device, the communications equipment for the particular system the locomotive was operating over could be located almost anywhere -as long as it was connected to the hardware on the locomotive. As a backup the portable module could be connected directly to the train air (and ECB if appropriate) and programmed to believe it was X-many feet forward at the front of the train
If a Positive Train Control train is backing up with the PTC locomotive on the former front of the train, the electronics have to know that there are so many feet of train ahead of them so they can slow and stop the train at the proper places. A non equipped steam engine on the front of a train will be the same situation.


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 Post subject: Re: Major Announcement from Altoona Today - BREAKING NEWS
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 3:32 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
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Meiningen doesn't make bad boilers - they famously had trouble with one in particular, the story which was never publicly explained. Many of their locomotives ran for decades or are still in service - but I'd certainly want to make sure the specifications were very detailed and quality control inspections happened frequently no matter who I might hire to build me a new boiler. As I recall, Nevada State had a new boiler built in the USA only to discover it wouldn't fit onto the locomotive even though it was made to specification.

Let's be careful....... we are fortunate to have many potential sources out there worth talking to.

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 Post subject: Re: Major Announcement from Altoona Today - BREAKING NEWS
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 5:49 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:41 pm
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Location: Minneapolis, MN
Isn't there an outfit in St Louis that is currently building THREE new locomotive boilers including the one for the C&NW 1385 and the T-1? Pretty sure that a home grown boiler build would suffice here as long as the Belpaire firebox is engineered to meet part 230. And if the engineering won't work, then build a radially stayed boiler and make it LOOK like a Belpaire.


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 Post subject: Re: Major Announcement from Altoona Today - BREAKING NEWS
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 7:24 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:58 am
Posts: 27
Trainlawyer wrote:
Howard P. wrote:
...
It's a steam locomotive, not an UMLER-interchange freight car. WHY does it need roller bearing driving axles? ...
Howard P.

Perhaps Brother Levin the Younger has run the numbers for the lifecycle costs...
GME


In addition, one can predict that roller bearings on the axles could be the difference between a pretty locomotive on a plinth in a museum and an operating excursion locomotive out on the main line.

Rightly or wrongly, plain bearings have become the oddball exception that takes high level approval for mainline operation across USA railroads, and which as we have seen is an automatic "No" for thousands of miles of track.

Folks in charge seem to be forecasting where the present trends are heading and how they will impact operations during the life cycle of a 1472 day Inspection.

Now is the time to do it.

Brian


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 Post subject: Re: Major Announcement from Altoona Today - BREAKING NEWS
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:04 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
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Location: southeastern USA
hamster wrote:
And if the engineering won't work, then build a radially stayed boiler and make it LOOK like a Belpaire.


Belpaire boilers are common in many places and are not difficult to design relative to any other - the PRR boilers suffered (as I understand it) from a design that left no margin for loss on the roof sheet which could most easily be remedied by going to a thicker plate. Also, full penetration welded seams are more efficient than riveted which gives modern practice yet another benefit. Let's not create problems that don't exist when there will be plenty enough that are real to be discovered.

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 Post subject: Re: Major Announcement from Altoona Today - BREAKING NEWS
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:17 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
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Location: Youngstown, OH
I do not wish to jinx it, but I would like to mention that we have gone for five pages of discussion on the 1361 without devolving into an utter crapshow. Thank you for keeping this a civilized, intelligent and thoughtful conversation.

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J&L Narrow Gauge Railroad
"The shortest and narrowest Railroad in Ohio"


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 Post subject: Re: Major Announcement from Altoona Today - BREAKING NEWS
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:25 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:28 pm
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Location: Northern WV
The announcement mentioned that the driving axles would be converted to roller bearings. How about the leading and trailing trucks. Have they already been converted to roller bearings? If not, wouldn't these trucks need to be converted as well. I would imagine the ban on plain bearings would apply regardless whether the wheelset was powered or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Major Announcement from Altoona Today - BREAKING NEWS
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:31 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:54 am
Posts: 819
Location: NJ
Thousands of diesels run around on plain bearings every day. They are inboard of the wheels, and support the traction motors. Don't tell anyone, or these locomotives won't be able to be interchanged or run-through any more.


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 Post subject: Re: Major Announcement from Altoona Today - BREAKING NEWS
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:53 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:34 am
Posts: 374
Aren't crankshaft bearings and piston rod bearings also friction bearings? Shhh....

I'm with my esteemed colleague from the Strasburg Railroad on the roller bearing conversion. If no tooling exists to produce these bearings or the boxes, you're looking at huge dollars just for that and that's assuming you can get Timken interested in a special production run of 6 bearings and 3 housings. The Southern Pacific Spring Pad Lubrication system is tried and proven. This system is further enhanced by the Armstrong Oilers which has proven to work extremely well on our two Southern locomotives at mainline speeds.

If they do pursue the roller bearings, can we go further and add rotary cam poppet valves to it?

Does anyone know who's done the engineering on this effort? I thought I saw a reference that an engineering study had determined that a new boiler was the way to go. I'm curious how that decision was made.

Kudos to Messrs. Levin and Moorman for taking this effort on.

G. Mark

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 Post subject: Re: Major Announcement from Altoona Today - BREAKING NEWS
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 10:29 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
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Location: Youngstown, OH
If interested in seeing the current condition of the boiler and other components for the 1361, take a look at these 83 photos that I took a couple of years ago.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/33523379@N03/albums/72157675020325136

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"The shortest and narrowest Railroad in Ohio"


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