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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:35 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:40 am
Posts: 178
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Last edited by BigBoy 4023 on Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:46 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 373
Mr. Mitchell - Thank you for the information. No real surprise here. The people doing the dirty work in Noblesville since the Order was issued (such as Mr. Lynch) are earnest professionals who represent preservation at its finest. They will surely continue to work with the City to bring about the best possible outcome from this unfortunate situation. As I stated way back on page three of this thread, "I do not see anything in the Court's Order that would imply that the City of Noblesville or the City of Noblesville Parks and Recreation Board has the bulldozers lined up to flatten any remaining railcars left on the premises immediately after ITM is evicted ... Once ITM is evicted, there will be a process which will likely give interested individuals and organizations the opportunity to work with Noblesville to remove items of interest and/or historical value."

For this I was told that I needed to go back and read the Court Order. Oh well.

I agree that posts making broad negative statements about people with whom other preservationists are making a best effort to work with to produce positive outcomes is really not helpful at all, nor is it fair.

"Silly boy ya' self-destroyer. Paranoia, the destroyer" - The Kinks


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:16 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:48 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Watchung, NJ
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

The reports I have from intelligence from "our front-line troops" seem to indicate that the Parks & Recreation Board is giving consideration at this meeting to extending the legal deadline for the removal of railroad equipment from the site, and doing so in a legally acceptable and unambiguous manner so as not to have a Sheriff saying "sorry, but I got my orders here from the court....." on Friday morning.

We've already had numerous accounts from the "troops" that the authorities are being acceptably gracious and willing to work in concert with good-faith, sincere efforts to follow through to the desired end of evacuation of the site. ..



Sandy,

Thank you for your update. I've been trying to gather information myself. While I hope for the best, my gut is telling me that a reprieve has not yet been obtained.

I've read on this forum that many parties (such as Mr. Lynch (Fort Wayne), and the Age of Steam delegation) have claimed to have spoken with the local officials regarding getting an extension. I have absolutely no reason to doubt any of their claims.

However, for three days now, I've spent a considerable amount of time trying to make contact with the "friendly, receptive" city officials I keep hearing about. To date, I have received only one email in response to my inquiries. I have asked for a confirmation (and clarification) of the various public statements being advanced in not only this forum, but also in the regular new media in and around Indianapolis.

I was told my inquiry was forwarded to both the Deputy Mayor's office ( the Honorable Steve Cooke is reportedly acting as the point of contact for non-ITM equipment owners, be it a private equipment owner, or a prospective buyer) and the City's General Counsel. So far, none of the "friendly City officials" seem to want to answer a number of basic, simple questions so that parties with an interest in this process can get some basic information.

This reluctance to speak with everyone on an equal basis does not inspire my confidence in the process currently underway.

I truly hope that a reprieve can be obtained. But the lack of public information, plus the reluctance to speak with everyone in an open and fair manner, forms the basis for the conclusions I've reached regarding the current situation.

_________________
Eric S. Strohmeyer
CNJ Rail Corporation


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:47 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8780
Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
Consider the possibility that the parties to whom you wish to speak are, in all probability, quite overwhelmed with not only what they're facing firsthand, but also a possible deluge of expressions of interest and outrage from outsiders from across the country, from the serious to the "American Pickers" watchers to the local history buffs to the "pleeze dont scrap the steemers their history and i luv them" type.

Noblesville is all of 50,000-some folks, if Wikipedia ia accurate [citation needed]. That's a small city, not some massive city-state like Los Angeles or Chicago where city officials have drivers. It's entirely possible some of the city people involved have other day jobs in addition to their city posts.

Compounding this problem is that you have multiple forces literally present, all seemingly haggling over the carcasses like vultures waiting for the critter to finally die and all with their own self-interests. As of yet there is, as far as I know, NO central "broker" figure, either officially appointed or self-appointed by either the city, the ITM, OR the various interested parties, to sort through the chaos and sift the wheat from the chaff, the "worthy" parties from the frivolous, the jewels from the "shoulda scrapped her a decade ago".

Legally speaking, the Sheriff can't do that. Logistically (and probably legally), the Board of Parks isn't in a position to do so. The ITM, Lord knows what's going on there. And we have NO "benevolent dictator" among our community to seize authority and wrangle out the mess fairly for everyone, the way we've seen with a couple traction collections that got broken up and thrown against the "wall."

This is also a case where, by necessity in these circumstances, name recognition and reputation precede you. If certain names suddenly got a bee in their bonnet for some of the equipment allegedly up for grabs, like a director of a certain Midwestern museum or two or the CEO of a certain steam railroad, they probably already have the phone number of Kelly Lynch or the AoS reps, or know someone who does. A call from "Mr. Moedinger" or "Bennett" or "Nick at IRM" is certainly going to get handled differently from a call from the Skull Valley Historical Society and Railroad Station Museum in Arizona or someone claiming to be from the "Wisconsin Railroad Museum," to make up examples (I hope). There are others "on the scene" that have made themselves available online via forums like this and on social media; they, too, have to use their discretion and judgement.

We are extraordinarily fortunate for the sake of ITM and rail preservation that the ITM is close enough to at least two noted top "movers and shakers" in the field (Fort Wayne and Age of Steam) that had enough cash on hand (and, we assume, enough credit with banks and/or benefactors) and a lot of available networking to be able to step in in person and negotiate fairly important deals at the drop of a hat. I would dare to say that had this happened in, say, Florida or Texas, the outcome might have been far grimmer.

I don't think anyone wants to be snobbish, exclusionary, or elitist about this, but this is one of those cases where if you're not there in person or on a good professional basis with those who are, you're probably not going to get anywhere. It sucks and all that, but that's largely because we are not truly a national rail preservation "movement," but a cluster of fragmented projects, a few too many driven by loyalty and egos rather than true preservation and the "big picture."


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:53 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2256
Location: Northern Illinois
Eric S Strohmeyer wrote:
be it a private equipment owner, or a prospective buyer)


I assume you don't own anything at Noblesville, so are the prospective buyer. Those two words, right there, are the source of the problem.

Whatever the current population of the United States, that is the number of potential prospective buyers, with a few foreigners thrown in for good measure. If I was on the staff of the city of Noblesville, I wouldn't take your call either. We have nothing to talk about. Any promises I might make will only come back to bite me later when you fail to perform. Why would I want to get involved with that?

At this late date I think the only way one can protect oneself is to write a clause into the purchase agreement with ITM that says they don't get their money if you can't get your stuff, and they will refund your money if the city/county comes to collect, since they technically sold you something they no longer own. That would at least give you some grounds to claw back the money if the deal goes as badly as it could.

ITM has allowed this whole thing to become a disaster. If you don't think enough of whatever you want to buy to risk paying twice for it, by all means, don't get involved.

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Dennis Storzek


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:09 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:34 pm
Posts: 228
Dennis Storzek wrote:
Eric S Strohmeyer wrote:
be it a private equipment owner, or a prospective buyer)


I assume you don't own anything at Noblesville, so are the prospective buyer. Those two words, right there, are the source of the problem.

Whatever the current population of the United States, that is the number of potential prospective buyers, with a few foreigners thrown in for good measure. If I was on the staff of the city of Noblesville, I wouldn't take your call either. We have nothing to talk about. Any promises I might make will only come back to bite me later when you fail to perform. Why would I want to get involved with that?

At this late date I think the only way one can protect oneself is to write a clause into the purchase agreement with ITM that says they don't get their money if you can't get your stuff, and they will refund your money if the city/county comes to collect, since they technically sold you something they no longer own. That would at least give you some grounds to claw back the money if the deal goes as badly as it could.

ITM has allowed this whole thing to become a disaster. If you don't think enough of whatever you want to buy to risk paying twice for it, by all means, don't get involved.

At this point Dennis a "prospective buyer" may be their best chance in hell to save themselves from the mess they have brought upon themselves. However while buying a locomotive certainly isn't like getting your casual Honda Civic that shouldn't mean it can't be available to everyone else. Right now we need all the help we can get. Professionals and private individuals alike we're all in this together.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:10 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 539
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =858139899
The NYC baggage car and PRR two-bay covered hopper made it to the 12th but are still not saved.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:47 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:21 am
Posts: 394
Well, today is "the day", and it's 5:45pm eastern time, so "the day" is pretty much over.

Chapter one has ended.

Tomorrow will be Chapter two of this saga. We wonder what it will bring?


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:53 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:24 pm
Posts: 6
I'm not sure whether to be relieved or afraid for what comes next.

Some of the "Never-ITM'ers" were predicting a last-minute rush to scrap items out of pure spite. That apparently didn't happen, which means those making decisions onsite for the museum probably deserve an apology, if not some credit for trying to save as much as they did.

It's in the City's hands to do the right thing now. Let's hope they don't act out of spite, either.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:04 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:40 am
Posts: 178
Eolesen, The list is still showing alot of MTO which we are predicting means must truck out. I am wondering if they are working with ITM to some degree considering how much still has not been removed from Noblesville? I just get a feeling more is at work behind the scenes than we are getting through the news channels.

When the heck is Kokomo going to remove the Navy VO-1000?

Robert


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:12 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:24 pm
Posts: 6
BigBoy 4023 wrote:
Eolesen, The list is still showing alot of MTO which we are predicting means must truck out.


No, it's not "must truck out"

William confirmed to me yesterday that MTO is the initials of the person who has acquired these items.

They've requested to remain anonymous for the time being.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:17 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:40 am
Posts: 178
That is certainly news to me and good to know. Let's hope the Milw F units and HC13 and VO1000 is safe.

Robert


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:25 am 

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:30 pm
Posts: 70
Sheriff showed up at midnight and locked the gates, shows over for now..

Ryan


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:56 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 8780
Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
And for those keeping score, the CB&Q Silver Salon and the Flagler executive car were the last two to escape, the Flagler car rolling out with literally five minutes to spare, according to one source.

Now, at this point it becomes an issue of what approach Noblesville authorities take. IF they abide by their verbal promises to let old and new private owners remove the stuff past the deadline in a timely and appropriate, organized fashion instead of the chaos of the past two weeks, then at the moment the pieces that may be in jeopardy from City impounding and sale/scrap/fee assignment can most likely be counted on the fingers of one hand at most, and none of that is either historically significant in the grand scheme of things or economically viable.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:26 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:43 am
Posts: 520
One 'version' of the information alleged that they would lock the gates at midnight and nothing more would be moving out for at least 30-60 days while legal matters were settled.... half that prophecy is true for the moment..,,


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