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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:57 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
robertmacdowell wrote:

Now having read the judgment in full, I find it to be lopsided to the extreme - courts have been kinder to Riffin or Righthaven. Such extremism tends to be rich ground for legal error, and thus, appeal.

This would presume that ITM management has access to diligent and savvy legal advisors and representation in the first place, and the evidence of the events of the past couple years or so would tend to contradict that presumption.


Even the best attorney couldn’t have helped them. Neither the law or the facts were in their favor. They were reduced to pounding on the table and screaming.

As an attorney, your role is to give your client advice and counsel. A good attorney will properly advise the client the potential outcomes and risks of a course of action. Even with this information, the client may choose a strategy that is counter to their interests.

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:00 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2528
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
robertmacdowell wrote:
Now having read the judgment in full, I find it to be lopsided to the extreme - courts have been kinder to Riffin or Righthaven. Such extremism tends to be rich ground for legal error, and thus, appeal.

So the fat lady may not yet have sung.


Just. Stop. Right. There. Take ten minutes and read the decision. You can see the faulty arguments and evidence presented by ITM. In its ruling, the court made a very long section of facts that it found. Before you opine on an appeal, just read the judgment. Don’t be willfully ignorant.


Before a lot of people get excited about an appeal, a few points:

1. A lot of states require the appealing party to post a bond with the court in order to appeal. If I were the city, I’d ask for a very high bond, given the damage ITM could inflict on the property. If iTM can’t afford to move equipment, they may not be able to post a bond.

2. The only real chance of appeal would be if the court got the law wrong. Given by understanding of “Black Letter” contract and land law, I doubt it. Courts are given wide discretion to make findings of fact. ITM would also be limited to the arguments it brought up in the original proceeding. No “do over.”


At the end of the day, the legal issues surrounding this case deal with landlord-tenant law. This is no different than having a tenant refuse to move out at the end of a lease. As someone who respects property rights, I see the city’s position, regardless of my feelings about railroading. The role of a court isn’t to save a party from itself. ITM signed this lease, knowing this could be a potential outcome. Why should they get out of their legal obligations? Feelings?

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Last edited by wilkinsd on Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:11 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 614
robertmacdowell wrote:
Now having read the judgment in full, I find it to be lopsided to the extreme - courts have been kinder to Riffin or Righthaven. Such extremism tends to be rich ground for legal error, and thus, appeal.
I have also read the judgement in full and I cannot comprehend how you can view it as being "lopsided". In a footnote on page 4, it even says:
Quote:
This judge celebrated his child's fifth birthday on a train ride at this museum. Additionally, from my chamber windows, I have enjoyed watching the historical trains move through downtown Noblesville. The trains and ITM represent a link to our history.
IMHO, the judgement does a great job of explaining why the law and public interest do not allow the remedy that ITM is seeking.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:29 pm 

Joined: Sat May 07, 2016 1:12 am
Posts: 106
It must be discussed. What are the possible outcomes should ITM not be able to move their things by the date? Automatic forfeit of ownership (then scrapping, saving, or selling items) or a Jensen standoff til everything is scrapped? No one here wants to see these items end up like Jensens loco just so the ITM can prove a point!

Minor update. I found a article that refers to building a trail NEXT to the rail and made reference to transit. Sounds like they just want ITM out but wants to take the rail and equipment down a path with better stewardship?

https://www.wishtv.com/news/local-news/ ... 1211469948


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:48 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 9262
Location: Somewhere north of Prescott, AZ on the Santa Fe "Peavine"
wilkinsd wrote:
The role of a court isn’t to save a party from itself.

People who have witnessed various judicial decisions in the State of California's appeals courts over the past decade or so may be forgiven for thinking otherwise, or for at least believing that the courts in question view their roles as exactly that.

Of course, none of this is relevant in Indiana--yet.

At this stage of the game, the only strategy I might think would be effective would be for other, serious preservationists--rail museums in other states, non-rail museums in Indiana, etc.--to impress upon the city and local officials, as well as the news media, the devastating black eye that wanton scrapping of this equipment would give them as far as a public-relations image.

It doesn't matter how badly Museum officials mismanaged this collection to this point. The onus should be impressed upon city officials to "do the right thing" and let others attempt to save what they can of this collection. We're going to have to assume a couple pieces get scrapped (and some already have); but this is not some hoard of wrecked/derelict autos and/or trucks and/or appliances cluttering a backyard with seemingly no rhyme or reason--unless we let city officials and the media portray it that way.

Of course, who knows what's going on behind the scenes. If a full-blown rescue effort is already under way, someone should at least hint at it so we can back off and let them pull it off (hey, you know, didn't I see something about another proposed project elsewhere in the state recently?.......).

UPDATE: Someone "hinted" back-channel. I'm just gonna go stock up on popcorn now.......


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:30 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:05 am
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Location: Quebec
nathansixchime wrote:
A few groups have approached ITM and the owners of private equipment there about relocating. There have been a few serious efforts developed and representatives from different groups and rigging/transportation companies have been on site, so here's hoping some of that diligence can be put to good use.


I question myself why the reason you have for not get 587 and maybe more? Yes you are 624 for display but ,with the situation now, why the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society
did not put his influence to acquire some items for saving it???

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:29 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:34 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Brewster, Ohio
Copied from Kentucky steam heritages Facebook page.

July 1, 2018 - Noblesville, IN

The Kentucky Steam Heritage Corp (KSHC), a Kentucky-based nonprofit rail preservation institution, announced Sunday that an agreement has been reached with the Indiana Transportation Museum to aid in an emergency move of pieces of their historic rail collection.

KSHC has agreed to purchase the museum’s tool car, an ex-Pennsylvania Railroad Railway Post Office Car as well as to transport 100-year-old steam locomotive - Nickel Plate Road number 587 - to their Ravenna, Kentucky shop for eventual re-build.

The Indiana Transportation Museum, which has been located in Noblesville, Indiana for over thirty years, has recently been handed a court order to vacate their city-owned property after a nearly-year-long legal battle with the city. The museum had requested an injunction of a previous court-ordered eviction to give the group more time to move their equipment out of the vicinity. The injunction was denied on Friday, and Hamilton Circuit Court Judge Paul A. Felix ordered the entirety of the group’s equipment - including 587 - to be moved by July 12th, two weeks from the date of issue of the order.

587, a Mikado-type locomotive, was built in 1918 and operated for the Nickel Plate Railroad in Indiana until being retired in 1955. It was placed on display in Broad Ripple Park in Indianapolis later that year. The engine gained significant fame in the late 1980s and early 1990’s when it was restored by museum volunteers and operated all over the eastern United States for the Norfolk Southern railroad’s steam program. It was in service for the Indiana Transportation Museum tourist operation until 2003.

ITM and KSHC have enlisted Underwood Machinery Transport, Inc of Indianapolis to move the engine, tender and tool car. Jim Irwin, Vice President of Underwood, said the company was initially responsible for moving 587 out of Broad Ripple Park in the 1980s during its first restoration. Because the museum track is not tied to the national rail system, all equipment will need to be removed and transported via truck.

The move will be overseen by KSHC Chief Mechanical Officer Jason Sobczynski and Director of Restorations Andy Wartman, who was also involved in the first restoration and subsequent operation of 587.

KSHC President Chris Campbell said that the partnership benefits both non-profit preservation groups, even though the circumstances are far from ideal.

“We are hopeful that this collaboration can help put a positive slant on an overall undesirable situation,” he said. “We are grateful for the opportunity to be the stewards of such a famous engine, and look forward to getting the engine fully operational for ITM in the not-too-distant future.”

KSHC has agreed to store 587 until ITM can raise the funds to restore the engine to active service once again. Since 2003, the locomotive has been undergoing intermittent restoration work. Progress has been made on the engine’s firebox and other key components, but major work has ceased since the museum’s future has become unclear while being embroiled in a feud with the city.

Recent court documents indicate that any property left on site in Noblesville after July 12th will immediately be deemed abandoned, and will be seized by the sheriff of Hamilton County, Indiana.

“In order to protect the future of this historic engine, immediate action needed to be taken,” said Campbell. “A major thanks goes out to Underwood Machinery Transport for mobilizing quickly to help make this possible.”

Kentucky Steam Heritage already has a large project in process, the rehab of former Chesapeake and Ohio steam locomotive number 2716, which is being leased from the Kentucky Railway Museum in New Haven, Kentucky. Campbell says the 587 move does little to affect the 2716 project, and in fact may enhance it. KSHC recently signed a contract to purchase a large tract of a former-CSX railyard and accompanying buildings in Ravenna, Kentucky about 30 miles southeast of Lexington. The facility will eventually become the Kentucky Rail Heritage Center and will showcase the restoration and operation of historic rail equipment, particularly steam locomotives. KSHC hopes to have both engines stored inside the Ravenna facility and will perform work as time and money allow. The 587 restoration will be contracted by KSHC, and ITM will still retain ownership of the engine.

While Kentucky Steam won’t own the Nickel Plate locomotive, it will execute the purchase of former Pennsylvania Railroad RPO car, which the group will utilize as a crew and tool car for C&O 2716 when it operates. It too needs to be removed from the premises by July 12th to escape possible repossession.

“We are trying to make the best of a bad situation,” said Josh Spencer, ITM board member and director of assets. “We are optimistic that we can reestablish our operations elsewhere and eventually get 587 back running in Indiana again. We appreciate KSHC lending a hand at the 11th hour and getting the engine out of harm’s way.”

Fundraising efforts are currently ongoing to handle moving expenses, and any contributions to KSHC will qualify for a hefty 400% grant match from the Appalachian Regional Commission, which the Kentucky group will submit a strongly-supported application for in August.
To make a tax-deductible donation to KSHC, visit www.kentuckysteam.org/contribute

ITM and KSHC plan to share the cost of moving the equipment. Specifically-allocated donations to KSCH will be contributed to the move of 587 and the purchase of the tool car. The moving process is expected to begin on July 3rd.

For more up-to-the-minute information, please visit the Kentucky Steam Heritage Facebook and Twitter feeds at:
https://www.facebook.com/kentuckysteam/
https://twitter.com/kentuckysteam

To read more about KSHC’s Appalachian Regional Commission grant application, visit the news section at their website www.kentuckysteam.org/news

-this is a developing story and will be updated as needed -

Kentucky Steam Heritage Corporation (KSHC) is a Kentucky based 501 c(3) non-profit organization working to rebuild, maintain, manage, and operate heritage rail equipment, including, including steam locomotive Chesapeake & Ohio Railway 2716, to operational status. The equipment will be operable pieces of "living history", and serve as an educational tool, enhancing heritage tourism and stimulating economic growth.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:56 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
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Location: Youngstown, OH
Just goes to show that just because it isn't on the Internet doesn't mean things aren't happening.

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:03 pm 

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Location: Leicester, MA.
That's a brilliant use for the money that was raised for 503... Go for it Jason!

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:37 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 863
daylight4449 wrote:
That's a brilliant use for the money that was raised for 503... Go for it Jason!

I didn't see anything in the facebook post that says the 503 money will be used for moving or restoring the ITM stuff, and I am not sure that is even possible. I wouldn't object to my small donation being used that way, all that I cared about was saving 503 and that has happened, but I don't think it is very easy to redirect funds that way.

So this must mean that ITM will talk to other museums about their collection.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:45 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
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Yes please cite where you saw that. I did not read that in the news release.

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:51 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
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Location: Youngstown, OH
So this just popped up.

https://www.facebook.com/319972281379363/videos/1868040769905832/

I'll let my contribution to the 503 go toward this new use.

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:51 pm 

Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:45 am
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Location: Illinois
Rick Rowlands wrote:
Yes please cite where you saw that. I did not read that in the news release.

https://www.facebook.com/kentuckysteam/ ... =3&theater

Sorry, facebook was the only source I've seen so far.

Jeff

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:55 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:49 pm
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Location: Northern Illinois
I would gladly let my contribution towards the 503 help towards this cause. But doesn't gofundme prohibit funds from being used for something other than the original intent?


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:16 pm 

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Location: Youngstown, OH
lmckay175 wrote:
I would gladly let my contribution towards the 503 help towards this cause. But doesn't gofundme prohibit funds from being used for something other than the original intent?


There is no verification mechanism at gofundme. If individual donors feel that their donations are not going to the intended recipient they can file a complaint and ask for a refund. Or that could all be avoided by just emailing Jason and asking for their donation to be refunded.

The donors are still in complete control of the intended use of their donations.

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