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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:18 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:03 pm
Posts: 797
The big wrote:
I question myself why the reason you have for not get 587 and maybe more? Yes you are 624 for display but ,with the situation now, why the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society
did not put his influence to acquire some items for saving it???


It's not the 587 we're after.

The big wrote:
why the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society
did not put his influence to acquire some items for saving it???



Quote:
The Kentucky Steam Heritage Corp (KSHC), a Kentucky-based nonprofit rail preservation institution, announced Sunday that an agreement has been reached with the Indiana Transportation Museum to aid in an emergency move of pieces of their historic rail collection.


There's your answer ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:31 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 468
Rick Rowlands wrote:
lmckay175 wrote:
I would gladly let my contribution towards the 503 help towards this cause. But doesn't gofundme prohibit funds from being used for something other than the original intent?


There is no verification mechanism at gofundme. If individual donors feel that their donations are not going to the intended recipient they can file a complaint and ask for a refund. Or that could all be avoided by just emailing Jason and asking for their donation to be refunded.

The donors are still in complete control of the intended use of their donations.


This proposed redirection of the funds raised for 503 should be posted on the GoFundMe page with notification to all donors via the GoFundMe notification mechanism to be certain that all donors have proper notice. I do not see anything on the GoFundMe page as of yet.

https://www.gofundme.com/help-save-the-la-503-friends-of

The last update to the 503 GoFundMe page was on March 7.


Last edited by Scranton Yard on Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:51 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:05 am
Posts: 62
Location: Quebec
nathansixchime wrote:
The big wrote:
I question myself why the reason you have for not get 587 and maybe more? Yes you are 624 for display but ,with the situation now, why the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society
did not put his influence to acquire some items for saving it???


It's not the 587 we're after.

The big wrote:
why the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society
did not put his influence to acquire some items for saving it???



Quote:
The Kentucky Steam Heritage Corp (KSHC), a Kentucky-based nonprofit rail preservation institution, announced Sunday that an agreement has been reached with the Indiana Transportation Museum to aid in an emergency move of pieces of their historic rail collection.


There's your answer ;)


I see it loll wow thanks for answer

Good idea to use GOFUNDME 503 fund to secure and move 587 and if i understand move 2716 too

But what next the 587 was not alone in ITM????

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:01 am 

Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:31 am
Posts: 591
I imagine that there are a few legal games to be played here if a group needed to buy some time to get equipment off the property. For instance, if non-profit XYZ could prove that they either purchased or were given a piece of rolling stock by ITM before 7/12, then the court order would not apply to that entity, and they could file an injunction with the court asserting ownership and blocking the sale or destruction of assets. A few legal motions later and suddenly 90 days have elapsed, the equipment is moved (which is all the local govt wants anyway), and the issue is dead.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:07 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:21 pm
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Location: Danbury, CT
I don’t agree with the idea of redirecting the L&A 503 donations. Refund the donors and close that particular campaign. Then, open a new campaign specific to the equipment and/or effort desired.

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:44 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 468
I do not see anything in the Court's Order that would imply that the City of Noblesville or the City of Noblesville Parks and Recreation Board has the bulldozers lined up to flatten any remaining railcars left on the premises immediately after ITM is evicted. Once ITM is evicted, the process leading to any possible ultimate scrapping of any equipment will have to take time. The Order states that scrapping many of the cars will require an environmental review to assess the presence of hazards such as asbestos. This review will also very likely include the assessment of the presence of lead paint and waste oils.

As City property, the City is probably obligated to attempt to sell (most likely at auction) any abandoned property to maximize the economic return to the taxpayers. The Order does say, "at the expense of ITM", but the City would be remiss not to make an attempt to minimize the costs associated with the cleanup in the event that ITM does not have the cash to cover the costs to return the Premises to, "a clean and sightly manner."

I can see why this is disastrous to ITM's desire to keep their equipment but I see no similarity to the situation with 503 in Port Arthur where the City had already signed a contract which included the demolition of the locomotive. Once ITM is evicted, there will be a process which will likely give interested individuals and organizations the opportunity to work with Noblesville to remove items of interest and/or historical value.

The stewards of this equipment, ITM, will soon no longer have ownership or possession of most of it. Has anyone identified an artifact or artifacts of interest, devised a plan for removal, and approached the City and the Parks and Recreation Board with their plan in an effort to work cooperatively with the City and the Board once the eviction is implemented?


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:03 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 468
Mount Royal wrote:
I don’t agree with the idea of redirecting the L&A 503 donations. Refund the donors and close that particular campaign. Then, open a new campaign specific to the equipment and/or effort desired.


The original GoFundMe proposal, created on February 16, 2018, included the statement that, "If we are unable to fund the immediate purchase and movement of 503, all donations will be refunded or forwarded to a railroad preservation organization of the donor's choice." This could be read to mean that Mr. Sobczynski obligated himself to reach out to each donor and ask if they desire a refund, and, if not, to which railroad preservation effort they wish their donation to be forwarded, and finally, to see to it that the funds went where each donor desired. Redirecting donated funds without the express consent of the donor is not advisable.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:27 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2528
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Scranton Yard wrote:
I do not see anything in the Court's Order that would imply that the City of Noblesville or the City of Noblesville Parks and Recreation Board has the bulldozers lined up to flatten any remaining railcars left on the premises immediately after ITM is evicted. Once ITM is evicted, the process leading to any possible ultimate scrapping of any equipment will have to take time. The Order states that scrapping many of the cars will require an environmental review to assess the presence of hazards such as asbestos. This review will also very likely include the assessment of the presence of lead paint and waste oils.

As City property, the City is probably obligated to attempt to sell (most likely at auction) any abandoned property to maximize the economic return to the taxpayers. The Order does say, "at the expense of ITM", but the City would be remiss not to make an attempt to minimize the costs associated with the cleanup in the event that ITM does not have the cash to cover the costs to return the Premises to, "a clean and sightly manner."

I can see why this is disastrous to ITM's desire to keep their equipment but I see no similarity to the situation with 503 in Port Arthur where the City had already signed a contract which included the demolition of the locomotive. Once ITM is evicted, there will be a process which will likely give interested individuals and organizations the opportunity to work with Noblesville to remove items of interest and/or historical value.

The stewards of this equipment, ITM, will soon no longer have ownership or possession of most of it. Has anyone identified an artifact or artifacts of interest, devised a plan for removal, and approached the City and the Parks and Recreation Board with their plan in an effort to work cooperatively with the City and the Board once the eviction is implemented?


You need to go back and read the court order. The Court tasked the Hamilton County Sheriff to secure the site, and remove the equipment, at ITM's expense. That "removal" probably doesn't mean loading it up on a trailer and delivering it to a location of ITM's choosing. It would likely be considered abandoned property and auctioned or sold off, and wouldn't automatically become "public property."

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:54 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 468
wilkinsd wrote:
You need to go back and read the court order. The Court tasked the Hamilton County Sheriff to secure the site, and remove the equipment, at ITM's expense. That "removal" probably doesn't mean loading it up on a trailer and delivering it to a location of ITM's choosing. It would likely be considered abandoned property and auctioned or sold off, and wouldn't automatically become "public property."


Perhaps it is you that needs to go back a reread the second paragraph (at a minimum) of my post in which I discuss abandoned property and the likelihood that an auction will be conducted. Ain't nuttin' wrong wid my comprnshun.

"A plan for removal" does not preclude some form of payment. A sale for removal intact will likely net the City more than if the City elects to sell a piece of equipment for scrap and first has to pay the cost of environmental assessment and remediation.


Last edited by Scranton Yard on Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:15 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2528
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Scranton Yard wrote:
Mount Royal wrote:
I don’t agree with the idea of redirecting the L&A 503 donations. Refund the donors and close that particular campaign. Then, open a new campaign specific to the equipment and/or effort desired.


The original GoFundMe proposal, created on February 16, 2018, included the statement that, "If we are unable to fund the immediate purchase and movement of 503, all donations will be refunded or forwarded to a railroad preservation organization of the donor's choice." This could be read to mean that Mr. Sobczynski obligated himself to reach out to each donor and ask if they desire a refund, and, if not, to which railroad preservation effort they wish their donation to be forwarded, and finally, to see to it that the funds went where each donor desired. Redirecting donated funds without the express consent of the donor is not advisable.


Donors should have gotten an automatic email stating that if they didn't want their money to be redirected, to let Jason know. I know of several donors who received such a notice from GoFundMe.

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:15 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2528
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Scranton Yard wrote:
wilkinsd wrote:
You need to go back and read the court order. The Court tasked the Hamilton County Sheriff to secure the site, and remove the equipment, at ITM's expense. That "removal" probably doesn't mean loading it up on a trailer and delivering it to a location of ITM's choosing. It would likely be considered abandoned property and auctioned or sold off, and wouldn't automatically become "public property."


Perhaps it is you that needs to go back a reread the second paragraph (at a minimum) of my post in which I discuss abandoned property and the likelihood that an auction will be conducted. Ain't nuttin' wrong wid my comprnshun.

"A plan for removal" does not preclude some form of payment. A sale for removal intact will likely net the City more than the cost of environmental assessment and remediation that will be necessary should the City elect to sell a piece of equipment for scrap.


The City won't be selling anything. The Sheriff's Department is responsible for removal. But we agree that it'll likely be considered abandoned property.

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:18 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 468
wilkinsd wrote:
Scranton Yard wrote:
Mount Royal wrote:
I don’t agree with the idea of redirecting the L&A 503 donations. Refund the donors and close that particular campaign. Then, open a new campaign specific to the equipment and/or effort desired.


The original GoFundMe proposal, created on February 16, 2018, included the statement that, "If we are unable to fund the immediate purchase and movement of 503, all donations will be refunded or forwarded to a railroad preservation organization of the donor's choice." This could be read to mean that Mr. Sobczynski obligated himself to reach out to each donor and ask if they desire a refund, and, if not, to which railroad preservation effort they wish their donation to be forwarded, and finally, to see to it that the funds went where each donor desired. Redirecting donated funds without the express consent of the donor is not advisable.


Donors should have gotten an automatic email stating that if they didn't want their money to be redirected, to let Jason know. I know of several donors who received such a notice from GoFundMe.


It will be interesting to see how many of the original donors elect to have their donations redirected in the manner suggested vs. how many request a refund. Will refunds be subtracted from the amount on the GoFundMe page?


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:46 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am
Posts: 468
wilkinsd wrote:
Scranton Yard wrote:
wilkinsd wrote:
You need to go back and read the court order. The Court tasked the Hamilton County Sheriff to secure the site, and remove the equipment, at ITM's expense. That "removal" probably doesn't mean loading it up on a trailer and delivering it to a location of ITM's choosing. It would likely be considered abandoned property and auctioned or sold off, and wouldn't automatically become "public property."


Perhaps it is you that needs to go back a reread the second paragraph (at a minimum) of my post in which I discuss abandoned property and the likelihood that an auction will be conducted. Ain't nuttin' wrong wid my comprnshun.

"A plan for removal" does not preclude some form of payment. A sale for removal intact will likely net the City more than the cost of environmental assessment and remediation that will be necessary should the City elect to sell a piece of equipment for scrap.


The City won't be selling anything. The Sheriff's Department is responsible for removal. But we agree that it'll likely be considered abandoned property.


The Sheriff's Office will be responsible for the sale but any money for the cleanup that can not be recovered from ITM will likely come out of the City budget. So it is the City who likely has the financial interest in liquidating the assets at the least cost/most gain and it is the City who will have an interest in avoiding potential costs of environmental assessment and abatement that may be necessary if an item is scrapped. The entity actually conducting the sale is irrelevant to the discussion of the potential financial benefits to the City of intact removal of an item from the property vs. scrapping in place.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:58 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 2598
Scranton Yard wrote:
I do not see anything in the Court's Order that would imply that the City of Noblesville or the City of Noblesville Parks and Recreation Board has the bulldozers lined up to flatten any remaining railcars left on the premises immediately after ITM is evicted.


Do you see anything that says they won't?

503 should certainly be fresh in our minds. Who knows what they'll do?

What happens if they say this:
"Clean up all that crap before they find a judge to repeal the order and allow them back in! I want it all out of there, today, now get moving!"


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:29 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:18 am
Posts: 566
Location: Wall, NJ
As we have seen before, there is a process that must play out. After the 12th, the city could start the process of taking ownership as abandoned property. Again, title can be tricky here, but there are some options. Either an RFP for the clean up, to include equipment removal in anyway possible, or actually sell the equipment to the highest bidder via a proper auction, keeping in mind that there will be a requirement to remove anything one buys at the auction within some predetermined amount of time.

So, who might be the highest bidder for a large metal object and who also has the where with all to move it quickly? That would the scrap yards. Been there done that.

There is a second piece to worry about here, especially if I was an ITM board member. If the costs to clean up the site exceed any income from an auction, who is responsible for that cost? Will the town cover it? Or will they go after the ITM and potentially the personal assets of the ITM board members? Don’t let the idea of D&O insurance fool you here. Unless you have some sort of insanely expensive D&O insurance, if you have really done something insane, you may not be covered.

This could get uglier before it gets better.
J.R.


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