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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:36 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:48 pm
Posts: 56
Location: Watchung, NJ
Good evening all,

I read the Court's decision and I am in complete agreement with Mr. Wilkin's assessment of the Court's decision.

Having said that, I wanted to ask a question regarding a small portion of the museum's collection. I have noticed that approximately 18 pieces of equipment appear to be stored on private property that is adjacent to, but does NOT appear to be on County-owned land.

Can anyone confirm where the property boundaries are between the property owned by Stone Spectrum, at 8585 E 249th St, Arcadia, IN 46030 and the government-owned right-of-way?

Here is a link to Google maps showing the cars in question - https://goo.gl/maps/34Bn9PSWETK2

It appears to me that the tracks in question are former industrial tracks located on private property. Streetview shows that removal of those cars could occur at a later time and NOT require the use of any government-owned property. Everything would have to go out by truck.

More importantly, it would appear that a few more cars / locomotives might be able to added to the string to get said equipment "off property" fairly quickly.

I would definitely like to know if anyone can confirm if those tracks are indeed on private property. Even if they are not completely on private property, I can see a "creative cause of action" which could be brought that could cast a enough of a legal shadow over the cars sitting on those tracks that such uncertainty might induce the County to a tad bit more flexible with regards to removing the equipment at that location (only).

Note: The car that I have an interest in seeing preserved happens to be stored in that line of coaches, which is why I'm asking the questions I am.

If anyone happens to know the answer to my question, please answer it here, or send me a private message.

I agree with Mr. Wilkins that there is very little that can be done to help ITM at this stage.
However, while I would also agree that the proverbial "lady" is clearly warming up for the grand finale, the final act could still be "delayed"....

And finally, I read that someone said "Beetlejuice" earlier in this thread.... Be careful what you ask for.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQXVHITd1N4

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:11 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3599
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Eric S Strohmeyer wrote:
Good evening all,

Having said that, I wanted to ask a question regarding a small portion of the museum's collection. I have noticed that approximately 18 pieces of equipment appear to be stored on private property that is adjacent to, but does NOT appear to be on County-owned land.

Can anyone confirm where the property boundaries are between the property owned by Stone Spectrum, at 8585 E 249th St, Arcadia, IN 46030 and the government-owned right-of-way?



I'm not positive, but it looks like Stone Spectrum may have two parcels, numbered 03-02-25-00-00-008.02 and 03-02-00-00-008.1. Property line relative to the railroad essentially follows that of the right of way; the spurs parallel the property line, and are on the private side.

Link to the property parcel map; Stone Spectrum is north of Noblesville, but not quite into Arcadia--in fact, it's just outside of Cicero. My mouse wheel is what is used for enlargement.

https://gis1.hamiltoncounty.in.gov/port ... d0c255e9a2


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:40 am 

Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:23 am
Posts: 29
The siding in question..


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:46 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5621
Would be nice to know just which pieces of equipment from the roster, are actually located on these two siding tracks.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:52 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:48 pm
Posts: 56
Location: Watchung, NJ
Les,

Based on the amount of rust on the rails, and from observing the few cars we can see in both the street-view image and the overhead aerial, it appears that these cars have been stationary (unchanged) for a number of years.

Given what appears on the publicly available rosters, and compared to photos I've seen on other websites, I've deduced the following cars should be at this location:

1917 Erie-Lackawanna 4336 Pullman Coach Steel - 78 Stored

1917 Erie-Lackawanna 4337 Pullman Coach Steel - 78 Stored

1930 Erie-Lackawanna 4361 Pullman Coach Steel - 78 Stored

1927 Central New Jersey 1185 Std Steel Coach Steel - 78 Stored

1929 Pennsylvania 8898 Pullman Sleeper Steel–26 – Paul Jones – 12/1 – 3410A Stored

Based on observable "identifiers" on their roofs, the five cars listed above appear to be coupled together on the track closest to the building. The heavyweight car located on the far end of the siding cannot be determined from aerial imagery.

There is a stainless steel car in the same string of cars which appears it might be the 1957 Seaboard Airline 8091 Pullman Diner Stainless - 36 - Naples Stored

The boxcar on the end is clearly a double door boxcar, so it would appear to be one of the newer boxcars in their collection.

The baggage car in the street-view photo is either their N&W or NYC baggage car.

The freight cars on the track closest to the mainline are difficult to discern. However, one of the cars clearly appears to be an open top hopper.

I believe the last three Budd cars are some of the un-rebuilt Santa Fe coaches that are listed as "stored".... There is no way to deduce which numbers are which.

Hopefully someone can provide some more information regarding what is at this location.

Based on the evidence property boundary evidence provided above, I think the cars located at this location are already "off property" and would NOT be subject to the Court's eviction order.



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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:51 am 

Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:26 pm
Posts: 402
Location: Pure Michigan
The irony of this whole situation is that in (2000) the "587: The Great Train Robbery" was filmed at the ITM and on "their" trackage. It was a lower budget kids movie about a group of kids finding a steam locomotive (#587) in a junkyard. And with the help of the old engineer, they steal the locomotive and save it from being sold for scrap and donating it to a museum.

Looks like that is actually happening (well sort of, thank goodness the #587 is safe).

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0235953/


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:21 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3599
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
NS 3322 wrote:
The irony of this whole situation is that in (2000) the "587: The Great Train Robbery" was filmed at the ITM and on "their" trackage. It was a lower budget kids movie about a group of kids finding a steam locomotive (#587) in a junkyard. And with the help of the old engineer, they steal the locomotive and save it from being sold for scrap and donating it to a museum.

Looks like that is actually happening (well sort of, thank goodness the #587 is safe).

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0235953/


If you want to preview the movie before buying a copy for some younger relatives, here it is, apparently posted by a distribution house.

Oh, and the "Lost Engines of Roanoke" make an appearance, too.

https://vimeo.com/88324576


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:10 am 

Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:17 pm
Posts: 221
Eric S. Strohmeyer

Most of the passenger cars stored at Cicero are there because of their terrible condition.

I recently looked at the 4 DLW style coaches for someone who had an interest in them. These cars have had NO care since ITM acquired them. Few windows remain, holes in the floors, steps falling off. Most of these had considerable rust through there sides, etc. Of the 4, I thought one might be worth saving and the other 3 for parts only. I would not even want to work on these cars without proper personal protection. The racoons have made a real mess out of this equipment.

The PRR car Paul Jones is there along with another old heavy weight from work train service.

The double door box car on the end is a former Wabash, outside braced auto, double door box car that came from Alacoa Aluminum at Lafayette, Indiana. The open top hopper is a steel hopper also from Aloca.

The baggage car on the end is an ex-N&W car with Hyatt roller bearings and does not appear to be in too bad of condition.

The axuiliary water car for 587 is in the outside line as well.

There are a couple of old steel 40 foot box cars and a newer L&N 50 foot box.

The stainless cars are all very in rough condition.

When I was there a month ago, I did not spend much time there. I was mainly there to look at the coaches for a party that was interested in purchasing them.

I was told by John McNichols that the plan was to scrap the coaches. I was also told Sunday evening that he is no longer in charge at ITM.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:30 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:03 pm
Posts: 797
The cars at Stone Spectrum are on private property and safe for the time being, but nothing can be moved in or out by rail without permission from the Port Authority.

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:46 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2457
Location: Northern Illinois
Eric S Strohmeyer wrote:

Given what appears on the publicly available rosters, and compared to photos I've seen on other websites, I've deduced the following cars should be at this location:

1917 Erie-Lackawanna 4336 Pullman Coach Steel - 78 Stored

1917 Erie-Lackawanna 4337 Pullman Coach Steel - 78 Stored

1930 Erie-Lackawanna 4361 Pullman Coach Steel - 78 Stored



Can anybody say exactly what these are? From the number series they don't appear to be "Boonton" cars so are likely either MU trailers or de-motored motor cars. Can anyone confirm?

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:53 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2547
Location: S.F. Bay Area
......


Last edited by robertmacdowell on Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:55 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:34 pm
Posts: 658
Location: Union, IL
Dennis Storzek wrote:
Eric S Strohmeyer wrote:

Given what appears on the publicly available rosters, and compared to photos I've seen on other websites, I've deduced the following cars should be at this location:

1917 Erie-Lackawanna 4336 Pullman Coach Steel - 78 Stored

1917 Erie-Lackawanna 4337 Pullman Coach Steel - 78 Stored

1930 Erie-Lackawanna 4361 Pullman Coach Steel - 78 Stored



Can anybody say exactly what these are? From the number series they don't appear to be "Boonton" cars so are likely either MU trailers or de-motored motor cars. Can anyone confirm?

That's correct, those are high-roof Lackawanna MU trailers.

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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:03 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 2601
AlcoC420 wrote:
Eric S. Strohmeyer

Most of the passenger cars stored at Cicero are there because of their terrible condition.

I recently looked at the 4 DLW style coaches for someone who had an interest in them. These cars have had NO care since ITM acquired them. Few windows remain, holes in the floors, steps falling off. Most of these had considerable rust through there sides, etc...


That's the problem with situations like this. You hear about the coaches, and imagine intact cars ready to be dusted off, maybe a COTS and put into service behind 587 at mainline speeds. Then you find out that what's really there is a deteriorating hulk that may or may not be worth saving. This stuff is never as easy as you'd hope.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:44 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2547
Location: S.F. Bay Area
The stuff at Cicero is what many would call "too far gone". It was previously parked on the powerplant wye, and was heavily vandalized. Copper stripped, windows smashed.

You *always* have to check. The good stuff is in Noblesville and soon to be property of the city, or so we're told.

I have a feeling something more complicated is going on. that's all I'll say. If I'm right, the legal side is muddier still.


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 Post subject: Re: Indiana Transportation Museum Given until July 12 to Mov
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:11 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:21 pm
Posts: 446
Location: Columbus, OH
I note that on ITM's Facebook page back on May 22nd this was posted:

"Things are changing! Our Forest Park Location Is Closed. We are in the middle of a massive move. Please stay tuned for Updates and Upcoming Excursions!"

Is anyone at or near Noblesville and can report if equipment has already been moving?

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